Accession Number | |||
Date | 03.2019 | ||
Media | digital recording | Audio | mp3 √ |
duration | 50 |
436_Anna-Holtrecht_Ganges-Community-Cemetary-Walk_03-2019.mp3
otter.ai
12.02.2024
no
Outline
Unknown Speaker 0:00
Okay, they could be here to
Speaker 1 0:03
stick to your and I'm Anna Anna.
Speaker 2 0:08
And I been organizing these walks for a few years now. And actually, this is our sixth year. So we've gone through all the main cemeteries, there were five that we've gone through over the past years. And we're starting again. Oh, that's good. Here's Dave. All right. I just fresh from Hawaii
Unknown Speaker 0:37
was skiing and Vernon
Speaker 2 0:42
was in Hawaii. And then it's hard to keep track of Dave all the time, but I'm really glad. So, my name August is start again, my name is Anna Hall track, and I do community engagement work with art spring and made in DC dance on tour. And it was six years ago that Tara Cheyenne, who is a dance maker from Vancouver was creating a piece and bringing it to art spring, and it was called Highgate funeral about the Victorian funerary practices. Dance Theater piece was very wonderful. And my job was to do some dance outreach activities to promote the performance. And it was actually Tara has the idea of many, many ideas. But of those, the ones that interested me the most was the cemetery walk, and a talk a discussion about death. So it was Dave that I had the idea to do the cemetery walk with because when my husband died, which was quite a while now 1996, Ron brunette, who is buried in the cemetery, we walked around because I asked Dave, I wanted to do a stone in that local stone, and who else to call on but Dave. So while we were talking about that, we walked around and he told me all the stories about the people here and I just thought it was an amazing thing that we could maybe do this for the community, so called on Dave. And then I called on the Saltspring hospice, and they told me about the the global movement called the Death cafe. And, you know, maybe like you if you hadn't heard about it, what do you mean, test cafe. But it's true man in the UK started it. And now we're still doing it. Six years later. So I just decided every year I would do this annual Walk in honor of my loved one, Ron Burnett, but also for all of our loved ones. And I think it's important that we know the history of people who have lived here on the island. And well who better to tell us than today.
Unknown Speaker 2:57
Thanks very much.
Speaker 2 2:58
But just before we do walk, I brought some flowers courtesy of thriftiest. So please feel free to pick a flower and put it on one of the graves as we walk around. And I also just want to acknowledge, again artspring and made NBC dance on tour who are also our sponsors. So thank you for coming. And take it away. DAVE Oh, one more thing that I should thank Saltspring archives to and Christina for coming up with the idea last year of recording our talks. So that's why Dave is holding it. And also we're taking some photos. So if you don't want to be in the photo, please let me know. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 3:43
so we're good. We're good. I
Unknown Speaker 3:44
think you've said everything now. Yeah, it
Unknown Speaker 3:46
was actually quite an emotional time when when Anna and I explored not only graveyards, but we went along fence lines and look for ideal rock throughout the North end to Salt Spring Island because it as much as I'm a blaster I've also tagged along with the geology students that come over in the spring. And the bedrock in the north end is a sandstone. But all of the granite that's on Salt Spring came down from how sound and out of the inlets was brought by glaciers. So we looked hard for a beautiful granite stone. And we eventually didn't find when did we you ended up doing something different. But you know, why do people put a stone over a grave? What's the big deal with a stone? It's very interesting. This morning, the first thing that happened to me as my neighbor popped over this is to say that his wife now weighed six pounds. Well, what that means is that she died and she does been cremated. And he had no intention whatsoever of bringing his wife to the graveyard. For some people. A graveyard is irrelevant. He's going to have a little bit on the mantle, and he's going to dump the rest of the ashes in the ocean. Now why do we even have a graveyard because in British Columbia, the most secular province in the in the nation, most people cremate. You know Nova Scotia probably does the most burials. I found this out because I am the Grave Digger of attendant, the verger, the forelock Tugger at the Anglican Church, so I'm actually on enemy territory right now this is the Protestant Unionist graveyard for all the great unwashed. No, I didn't say that. But anyway, here we are in a graveyard. That's everything but Anglican. So if you look around, you can find little gatherings of communities in the far corner over here. We got a most recently Richard Murakami SR was buried over in the in the Japanese section. Now, whether that reflects the racism of the day, or whether it reflects simply people wanting to be with their fellows is up for conjecture. Over in an area over there, you will find our behind community. The black communities in around this area here too. And somewhere in this graveyard is a man who fell overboard when I worked on BC Ferries in 1972. A couple of Royal Canadian Army veterans quite drunk came on the ferry, and one of them jumped overboard or fell overboard. His name was John Joseph Sharkey. And a ramp attendant jumped over to save him and suddenly discovered Fred Sparling was his name that he couldn't swim. So I ended up going after and pulling them out. And the guy was Toothless, and how to bile pouring out of his mouth. So I didn't have too much giving too much like giving them artificial respiration. But the funny thing was that we pulled him out. His name's John Joseph Sharkey. So I'd be very delighted if anybody could find this guy. The subtext to this story is that I was a thieving busboy at the time and when the the terminal attendant gave my jacket back to me, it weighed about 65 pounds, because I had stolen about 20 cans of salmon. So everybody was standing around congratulating me for being a saint. There's a few of you here that I know that I'm a sinner. Is that not true? Yeah, I didn't steal any more salmon after that. But it was quite interesting being everybody giving me these accolades. What a wonderful young busboy was meanwhile, I was also a thief. So I might suggest that amongst the crowd here, there could be people that are both as well who knows. I mean, what's interesting about this graveyard is what we don't do it the Anglican graveyard we dig what this venerable English officer used to call ash halls, I prefer to call them ash plots, where the the urns are buried in this cemetery, they very cleverly have above ground mausoleums that are like a post office boxes. I know Andy Kinnear's over here. Northern Irish butcher used to smuggle a hawks and fertilizer from north to south Ireland. Everybody here has a very interesting story. And not only the racial or the ethnic groupings, but the individual stories. I came here one day, and there was a woman standing in the graveyard. I was just going by to a meeting here. And this lady was standing here weeping in the graveyard. And I came over and said, I help out a bit here. I'm not the Grave Digger here, but can I help you out? And she said, Yes, she said that she had a teenage pregnancy and at 16 years old, gave up a boy who was adopted here. And sadly enough, he was shot kids playing with guns. And the young boy, Matthew Prendergast died. So we looked around the graveyard. And we found Matthew's grave and it was the strangest thing in the world. Because here I was, Matthew used to play with my daughter used to have baths. And it was so strange giving this woman a hug. who desperately wanted a connection with her son that she wanted to discover that she would never see. It was the strangest moment I've ever had of connecting. Loss, death, life, memory, a mother the earth. And Matthew is buried right over here. He was about in grade five, I think. So every one of these graves, of course has a story, you know, and whether they were loved in the community or like me, we're thieves. It's quite interesting. So I mean, just go round one to the other and have a look. You see all pioneers from old pioneer families. The African Indian communities in here. Japanese behind there's even Catholics hear. Oh, yeah, really? Yeah. Generally Ireland, Aboriginals over here. So just wander around and check it out. And and if I know anything about As someone who's here, I can tell you the Caldwell's the venerable Island family who've had the same piece of property for 145 years. You know, they they preempted and around 1885 other people, you know, maybe just got here last week. These are the distinctive Canadian Army. You'll find these these grave tablets in Europe in Holland. Don't don't see Lewis Hall has started. Yeah, there's Yes, right here. Anybody who's been to Europe will have seen the Canadian Army graveyards, and there'll be just exactly like this. There's people that set off. To serve king and country. There's also people who probably got scraped out of soup kitchens and, and were used as cannon fodder by the Empire. So I mean, lots of motives. My uncle was taken out of the barracks in 1915, when he tried to join up, and he was dragged off by my great grandmother, they farmed in Saskatchewan, to keep him out of the Army, and at the end of the war 1919 He went off to fight the Bolsheviks in Vladivostok. But what happened he died of the flu and Beacon Hill Park. Yeah, so the flu at the end of World War One killed as many people as all of World War One itself. So whether you're going to be like my neighbor, who's got his wife and a six pound urn, or whether you want to have ashes, that which is quite interesting to sit in that bench, and I know most of the people there and to think about the folks that were buried or where they were butchers, bakers, whatever, and what their stories were or the tragic tale of Matthew, or people that were involved in the Army because of heart swelling notion of how to serve king and country or whether they had a wife that nag them too much, whatever. They're here, you know, a sapper is a laborer in the Canadian Army. Engineering corps, a digger somebody that dug tunnels in the First World War especially them you Ridge, they, they dug like miners underneath, it's back from the old days where people would go under castle walls, and dig tunnels underneath castle walls and put gunpowder and blow them up. But, you know, on and on we go one British pioneers
Unknown Speaker 12:24
just to the limits of the trees, and also historically, I honestly don't know. And I wish that the Mrs. sodden had been here to tell us a little bit of the actual history of this graveyard. I know that when I worked here, years and years ago, mowing, it was one of them more at family, I've been more known. I've been more. One of the mods, were supervising the maintenance of the graveyard. But I would assume it would be somewhere around the turn of the century. When this the previous century that this has been maintained. But if anybody has any questions about any grave stones that they see, or Yes, I believe you can, but if you move to sewing Tula and buy a lot there, you get a free, great plot. The north end of Vancouver Island. Yeah, Fabian socialist finished community. I don't think you get a free gray a plot here. You have to swim there. Yeah. But I think a plot a grave plot and the Anglican cemetery is about 1000 bucks, I think on Ash plot is 350. But I don't know about the Amana, Liam, style. post office boxes over there. Like our friend is just sitting there having a chat and thinking about who's there. I mean, we've all got, you know, spooky memories of graveyards or notions or if you remember that movie, Easy Rider when they dropped acid and wandered through the above ground mausoleums in New Orleans. You can't dig somebody and plant them because they pop up again, like a septic tank. You've got to have a very above ground there, right. Whereas my sister is buried in Edmonton. They're running out of land, they're double deep there. You go down nine feet and then they stalk you. Or in other places, they wait till the flesh falls from the bones and you get to keep your uncle's skull on the shelf. You know, there's various ways of approaching I know when there was the fights over the the Aboriginal Island at a grace Island. I talked to an Aboriginal friend, background Dave role and he said all the small islands were used as graveyards. How can we don't have a pitch from a real estate man here? I mean, is this a waste of land? What do you think about graveyards? So
Unknown Speaker 14:45
here's the quiz. What's the difference between a cemetery and a graveyard?
Unknown Speaker 14:48
I don't know. Really, for real, for real. That's a true debt. legal definition. Oh, that's very interesting. I didn't know that. Real Estate trivia. Thank you very Much as far as Grace Island goes, it was my suggestion they turn it into an Aboriginal casino, but I always have been popular in some of my perspectives.
Unknown Speaker 15:09
So what are the chances of this disappearing? Oh,
Unknown Speaker 15:12
this is in violent, it would take a pug room or something like to change. I mean, let after the the Armenians were clubbed together in the streets by the Turks, all of their graveyards and, and the aspects of our culture was wiped out. You know, I mean, you can find Ethiopia. What's that group again in Turkey? The Armenians? Yeah, you know, and we have a Canadian, Armenian? Well, there you are. You don't want to happen? And there are graveyards? Yeah, exactly. 1908 approximately 1915 Was it okay. And so there, graveyards, you'll find a headstone on the corner of a fence somewhere in a chicken yard, or you'll find a Christian cross discarded because that culture was basically wiped out in what the Jews called a pogrom. But what the it was genocide. So I mean, if there is another culture that moves in here, this will become irrelevant. The gravestones will be used as doorstops. And it's over. But usually as long as our culture is intact, and all weather global warning, warming as a concerning hours or whatever else, or if you have watched this kid, lot of the kid shows I noticed nowadays or a apocalyptic, who knows, then the gravestone will become irrelevant. They'll plow other cultures, they plowed up, I'm sure we've done it to Aboriginal burial grounds over and over again. You know,
Unknown Speaker 16:39
when I was in England visiting a couple of graveyards behind the churches, they were eventually because they needed the land. They were taking the tombstones, they were taking the tombstones, and just kind of not piling them up. They were a little more reverent, perhaps on one side so that they could write
Unknown Speaker 16:55
or they've even used, they taken in Latin countries were bland dirt is a shortage. England's an example, they'll take all the tombstones, and then the grave markers, and they'll put them around the periphery. So then you've got a park to play. I mean, it is Greenbelt. And I know that in the Anglican graveyard, people just love the idea of having a bench where they can go and sit and whether you're thinking about your ancestors, or whether you're just enjoying the nature that's there. They are kind of a special place a graveyard. It's quite a special place.
Unknown Speaker 17:33
No, no, no, please.
Unknown Speaker 17:33
I have a universal question. Go ahead. What started putting stones tombstones on not dead people When did start because all over the world, they are doing the same you said of planting trees so we can have forests, we can have a better world. They're just using stones, putting names that like what for each and every culture all over the world. I think
Unknown Speaker 17:58
it's a notion of being a marker. I think in certain cultures like the Egyptian as compared to the Mesopotamian, the the afterlife is important. They want it marked. And the word marker is almost more important than the word gravestone. People somehow want to mark their life. You know, Jesse used to serve coffee, and in Rita's cafe, when I look at Jesse, I think that line is stools in what was the ship sank you're in and I remember her. It's a stone arrow,
Unknown Speaker 18:28
he's going to have a pyramid. I might rather have a pyramid on top of me too. Why should I get a stone for them for
Unknown Speaker 18:35
a pyramid? Get a pyramid, what's stopping you get one made out of copper, get one made of copper and you can resurrect. That's the whole other issue is rebirth and resurrection. But then you still have a tree. I mean, you can actually get trees now Can't you where you get the tree, you get stuck in a bag and you get and you get planted? Most definitely. And I don't know what percentage on Saltspring island. But I don't know if you remember that movie, The Big Lebowski where they threw the ashes out and it came back in people's faces, but I would say is very sizeable proportion of Saltspring islanders just put ashes into the sea. But the rest of us kind of like the idea of, oh, I remember Jesse's accent. I remember sitting there having a coffee. And she she worked for Mrs. Follis. And, and the memories come back people like memories, even horrible memories like the Armenian Genocide. We all don't We don't want to be forgotten. I think that's the issue, don't you? We don't want to be you don't want to forget Ron.
Unknown Speaker 19:36
I would much rather forget it. Well, okay.
Unknown Speaker 19:39
But out of me going and takes a different stance. We all have perspectives, right? For
Speaker 2 19:44
the next generation. It's interesting too, because he will know their past.
Unknown Speaker 19:48
Yeah. Well, I spent a week with my grandchildren skiing and they liked stories. And now the stories they're watching now, they've they've rejected Christian mythology, but they're totally into nordic mythology. You at all they know who Loki is. They don't know who John the Baptist is. But they know who Loki is right people like stories and mythology.
Unknown Speaker 20:07
Do you know anything about the graveyard on Galliano? Island? I read about it. I think it was in the Aqua. Yeah, it sounds gorgeous. It's beautiful there who will do a tombstone? to something that represent you? Absolutely.
Unknown Speaker 20:20
Yes. I've been to the funeral there for the five people that died after the cap Rouge incident. And I was there again last year. My friend from grade four is buried there, Bruce landmark. It's a beautiful graveyard, you can hear the sea lions. And the coffins have to be carried in. It's such an irregular terrain that the vehicle can't get in. And to see those five coffins being carried in by people. There was a Christian priest, there was an Aboriginal drum. It was a ceremony we'd like to mark those things. Yeah, there was 1000 people about at that huge funeral. Yeah, it's a it's a beautiful cemetery. When we were kids in Alberta. My parents would drive us around the Ponoka, Alberta area and they'd be able to finish cemetery or another maybe Scandinavian Lutheran or there were Welshman around there. We go a little bit north where the clay belt where the soil thickens, so does the accents. You get Ukrainians. And they love having the little pictures. On the on the actual gravestone. They'll have a picture that sits forever, you know, so I was previously question, the idea of marker. I know, a friend of mine worked in the Vancouver cemeteries. And culturally, the Chinese and the Italians were the most expressive. You know, it's an interesting mark of culture as to why and
Unknown Speaker 21:37
they sit at the graveyards, the Chinese, and they eat Chinese food with their relatives, because we were in New Westminster, and half of that graveyard is the Chinese. Right, and you go into the graveyard and CP people.
Unknown Speaker 21:50
Are we gonna have a word from our resident?
Unknown Speaker 21:55
Director? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker 21:56
I don't know. Well, first of all, tell us your name. Jim Leslie. Right. This is Jim Leslie, folks.
Unknown Speaker 22:02
You're asking how long cemetery will be here. In British Columbia Law, the cemetery as a cemetery will be always a cemetery. Yeah, so you're asking about when they are in England when they take up the markers. So in a lot of countries, you only buy your burial plot for 50 to 100 years. So after that, unless you're rebuy it, they then take out the marker and the bones, they go into what's called an Orser prairie. And then that plot is sought to next me that would use it because quite often after 100 years, the families have moved on the on
Unknown Speaker 22:34
that somebody didn't know but ours are in violent they lost theoretically forever. That's correct. Okay. skill testing question. Where's the smallest cemetery in the Gulf violence?
Unknown Speaker 22:42
I'd say it probably be Grace Island.
Unknown Speaker 22:45
The point there
Unknown Speaker 22:47
okay. You slipped by what about all Island? Primo island? They divert family? That's correct. Irish knights are the northern knights of land in Ireland and 1295 I think they have three graves there. Yeah. And the last time we vary bill while Chuck we couldn't fit his. We couldn't fit his coffin in his hand, Doug. So they all went for tea and left me the forelock tugging Churchill to widen the grave. We still get and get inside to jump on Bill's casket to get him in the in the ground. But he was a great friend of mine. I know sometimes some funny things happen. Absolutely. Yeah. There's a lot of humor as good. He used to say he was the previous director. When asked How's business? He'd say that the competition's kind of stiff. He was very funny. Where is he? Now? What happened to Oh, good. He's long gone. That's good question. I don't know. He might very well be in this. Well, there we are. Ask your real estate agent over there. Awesome. So before I turn this thing off, does anybody have any relevant or irrelevant questions? What's the oldest trade here? I don't know. Maybe if we start I would suggest it's a Caldwell's in the morning. That
Unknown Speaker 24:02
one there that's on the ground. Oh, really? No kidding. It is 69 This
Unknown Speaker 24:11
looks like this is pretty good folks. Look at this 1869 I mean, Victoria was open up in about 1849 is that correct? Doctor the Oregon treaty Oh 1849
Speaker 2 24:27
And why did they choose this spot right here? I mean, they could have gone somewhere else.
Unknown Speaker 24:32
I don't know Jenna say pa Yeah, maybe it was still forest it Yeah. Yeah, it was near the central hall and over here we've got a grave that's I can't believe it from the 18 For real. And who's this? Oh, this be for NASA road. 32 Oh, guidance. 32 No book. So that might be the oldest, the oldest there you Is there any other questions relevant or irrelevant? Yes.
Speaker 1 25:04
Can I have some insight about why there are stones on growth? I just was thinking, originally to keep animals for a very
Unknown Speaker 25:14
practical reason, putting heavy rock the same as the altar rails are on the church railroad to keep dogs away from the altar. Sometimes there's very practical reasons for things that have carried on in time.
Speaker 1 25:26
But I've been told that the reason six feet under us in the Battle of Shiloh, Shiloh, the pigs started routing the bodies in shallow grave right after that had to be six foot,
Unknown Speaker 25:38
right? They buried the body so that animals especially pigs wouldn't root out the cadavers. And they probably didn't have formaldehyde in them at the time. So the product kind of be kind of crunchy. Yeah, yes. Like family plots, like bland farm. Well, the only one I know is over in Provo Island. I know that Howard, Harold's grandfather was buried on the gravel pit partway to fall for but that was because of a dispute with a Methodist minister. Sometimes it's pretty intense times around who gets what, at the time of death. The death itself is or if there's been a squabble with the preacher or you know, I'm sure there's some pretty good stories. Yeah, it's a question
Unknown Speaker 26:24
of legality. Yes, I think he had to be dug up. You can't just bury someone anywhere. I mean, no, you can't bury on your own land. I think you can put ashes in the course. But
Unknown Speaker 26:38
you're not even allowed to. But everybody does.
Unknown Speaker 26:40
Oh, I see. I know that at the other cemetery. We dug up bones because somebody was buried in the wrong place. So we went and got a sock from Go ahead. And I shouldn't be telling the story.
Unknown Speaker 26:50
In relation to scattering of career means there are no regulations in British Columbia, you've not got permission of land owner. Really.
Unknown Speaker 27:00
So if you knock off and what's your name, you can bury in the backyard. Oh. Oh, okay. Okay, so you can cremate her first? Big burn barrel?
Unknown Speaker 27:13
I really appreciate your stories about the people buried here. Yes, one. Because there's a lot of what I consider the old time families in this cemetery. Do you have more stories about India? Well,
Unknown Speaker 27:26
I'm a newcomer. I've only been here about 50 years. I came here in 1970 to be a hippie. Do you remember hippies? Yeah. But yes, I know individuals. And we could go around and have a look. You know, there's been some green burials with no. Yeah, and sock liners. Correct. But you had to have liners? Well, sometimes the things that I say aren't really, when you want to talk about the what you should do legally. Jim Leslie's your man, I can tell you about what has been done. Yeah, but then I shouldn't be on this thing. Should I? Yes. Pardon me was at a church here. No, I don't believe there was a church community graveyard attached to Central Hall. I just interject, yes. On the
Unknown Speaker 28:18
corner, just across where the ball field is. And that church was moved into Ganges and it's now it was the Legion. And now I think the drags
Unknown Speaker 28:27
over there was that there was a church and the answer, delete what I just said. Yeah. But I'm an Anglican. So you know? Yeah. Wasn't
Unknown Speaker 28:36
the agricultural fair held somewhere here?
Unknown Speaker 28:40
No, it was always around town hall. To my knowledge. Yeah. So I guess there was a jail here, too, apparently wasn't there. There was a jail. And I guess there was a church, which later became a beer parlor. I drank in it, but I never prayed in it. Yeah, that was the 70s. And then that would be what would later became the United Church, right? Yeah. I have that concept. Yes.
Unknown Speaker 29:05
Cyberspace. Get someone in cyberspace forever, live or animated by themselves. So you can go and visit them?
Unknown Speaker 29:16
Well, I think Walt Disney has been frozen as me. He's frozen. Well,
Unknown Speaker 29:19
I'm saying someone that is animated. You can talk to them even they will even answer you.
Unknown Speaker 29:26
Well, they have drugs for that. Can you talk to your ancestors? But what don't do we want to talk to our ancestors? Has anybody ever talked to an ancestor? Well, they were like, Yeah, I mean, they come to us in our dreams, don't they? Our ancestors? I think so.
Speaker 2 29:50
Do you know some of the a lot of the ancestors are are older graves. I'm looking for Richard Richard sister.
Unknown Speaker 30:00
Oh, well, I would assume that they're Japanese folks, I would assume that violet would be there. Yes. I think if there's a new marker, and relative interesting, put her in there somewhere. And one thing that's interesting about all this talk about stones, is I don't know why the Japanese used wooden markers, whether it's because they were treated as second class citizen, like those stones that are all here on new, right. But originally, I don't know if that's a cultural choice, or a cultural rejection, but they used they're all wooden markers before. So back to the idea. A gentleman asked about stones or to keep here we have a contradiction they used, I think, by choice would but I don't I don't have the answer to that. Somebody with Richards family with the background would say, now there's lots of now there's lots of stone markers, but that may not have been the original thing. Yeah,
Speaker 2 31:02
I think here is a good marker. Yeah. And then they added, right.
Unknown Speaker 31:08
So can I turn this thing off now? Or you want me to keep keeping on? Keep an eye? Do
Unknown Speaker 31:13
you know some of these?
Unknown Speaker 31:16
This is Matthew Prendergast, this is the boy I was telling you about. Oh, Matthew, kids were playing with guns and a Matthew, who was a friend of my daughter who's not 42. He was, you know, it's goodbye. It's what they went watched the movie and the kids played with guns. And there you have it, as a reason to keep the gun separate from the, from the mechanism and from the bullets. Yeah, and I gave his mother a hug here. That was just such a powerful thing, because I was her connection to her son, who she had last seen him when he was a few days old. And the fact that I know him and bathe them and my daughter was his friend gave her a visceral connection. That's what we want visceral connections. Yeah. And his mother, his adoptive mother, died quite recently and was quite heartbroken. This is his adoptive mother. Not his biological mom, Wayne Taylor would know the story. He said summer 13 songs. So anyway,
Speaker 2 32:25
he wants to continue to know any plan that is in existence that you could just see the coordinates of Yes, I understand there
Unknown Speaker 32:33
is yes. And the lady's name, who's at the gate could tell you, Derek sounds wife, she would have the more information than I do. And use there's a plan
Unknown Speaker 32:44
on the archives.
Unknown Speaker 32:48
website about this particular archives, and it will have the names of the people you can find the people, you'll be able to
Unknown Speaker 32:57
click on the name. I don't know where Violet is. No, she's not amongst No, there's nothing new. But one could ask that I owe Richard 300 bucks. I have to go around and see him. I'll ask him. How many generations? Why would say for for sure. I could save for generations. I think those folks started to arrive in the late 1800s. I think that's correct. A lot of them went home, but a lot of them stayed and we all know the story of the internment.
Unknown Speaker 33:39
Mrs. Saad, and what's your first name? Angela. Angela Sowden. Her name's at the gate. And she can tell you the day to day workings of the cemetery. And, and so you applaud for a lot of work to be done. Those financial details she again like no. Yeah, I know when I work here. years ago, it was one of the more gentlemen paid me to mow the lawns and stuff years in the 70s. Well, I would say that I would find that number there that's at the gate. And she could tell you anything about the day to day operation, because obviously, there's neglected cemeteries that there's neglected cemeteries all over the country, they just get abandoned, right? Because there's no money mining towns or whatever. We've all driven past places, somehow. No, but there's, there's version there's versions of ancestor worship that exist in all kinds of societies. And we have sort of a lukewarm ancestor worship, I would say, in our culture. Yeah. It's turning one way or facing the other way. I don't think so. No, at the Anglican cemetery, we often just asked him Which way do you want to face I remember talking with Nancy Holcroft, and she wanted to line up so that she could lie beside Ron and look at the cross. together but yeah, of what form do we take after our demise? Who I cannot answer that question at this time? Let us know when you Okay. I'll be right on that. Yeah. Are there any other questions?
Unknown Speaker 35:16
You want to continue? Sure.
Unknown Speaker 35:19
That's go over here. Yes. There's a very interesting graves stone in the in the St. Mary's Fulford cemetery. Oh, yawn van stock has got a very interesting stone that circular one, and he met his wife at Alfred Schweitzer his place in Africa. She was an actress and he was a young physician. And they met there and he was the first single father I've ever met in my life. She ran off to ban the bomb wearing a black turtleneck and black leotards remember that before hippies bound the bomb? Yeah. This is beautiful. This is beautiful. Absolutely beautiful.
Unknown Speaker 36:05
So someone would be well, maybe we're with the number of people wanting to get into grave sites. Now. graveyards? Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 36:13
It would be difficult to take up that larger. Well, I don't think so. You pay for a double plot and, but like I said in the city of Edmonton, they're burying them too deep now. Like TW O D? Yeah, yeah. This is Wayne Taylor.
Unknown Speaker 36:30
I grew up in Salt Springs, and my parents came here and 40 or my grandparents came in 45. And came in 46 was when my parents, mum and dad came. And some of my uncles and aunts grew up poor spent most of their life
Unknown Speaker 36:44
where they buried weeds. Well,
Unknown Speaker 36:48
off off firmer dock, because that's where one of them is. They thought one of them thought about my one of my aunts who was responsible for my auntie pigs. Exit state was thinking about Shall I go to Fernwood doc, or shall I come here? And then because my aunt hadn't lived here in the last four or five years, even though she spent decades coming here and spending a lot of time, it was some questions whether she'd be allowed to be buried here. And also my aunt Sheila, who is looking after her husband, who has since passed away, lived in Salt Spring for a while. And he was a police officer here and they married here. And they were thinking about both being buried here. And they decided not to. And they've gone to one of those cemeteries, which David was mentioning earlier, where it it's like an eco cemetery. There's eco like ecological. Well, you can have one of these. It's in cedars. I've driven past it but never gotten it. There's one in Victoria two in the Royal Oak area, and you can have a regular grave, but you can have as somebody was mentioning, a tree or shrub, or whatever. And I think that's the direction that people are going to go and I think on Saltspring that's one of the things that we need for some people who want to be buried on the land.
Unknown Speaker 38:09
Yeah, Isabel vein hunt over here as a similar one didn't call him Buckley that was killed at the church on a drunken driving incident. Grace is his accelerator stuck and he died choking on his vomit right up here at St. Mark's Church. He's buried up there and cedars. Yes, I'm
Unknown Speaker 38:26
not surprised, we'll call him was actually a classmate of mine. And, and I'm sure it was very big tragedy for their family and, and a lot of people want to be remembered. I mean, myself, I'm going to go off of Fernwood dock myself. The
Unknown Speaker 38:40
Samson family has a little place underneath the dock and you see the whole site underneath room a dock and they have an original connection with the Aboriginal people from Connecticut island. So as they came down there, they they have a I was gonna say earthy, but that's not the right word, a marine connection. They wanted to be near the scene, the intertidal zone, you know, the, the embryo from whence we all sprang, right. That's where we got legs, isn't it? Yeah. What's your creation? Man? Who's what creation myth? Do you have? Is it engraved or bigger stone under a group of stones? You can go underneath the dock and look immediately to your left. And the Samson, who was the first Sheriff up there, married a lady from Connecticut. And they're connected with the roots of all that family too. Yeah. It's quite fascinating. People want to know about their background. I had a friend whose grandfather had been a Hudson Bay factor up in Fort near Edmonton called Fort Victoria. She was wandering through a graveyard. And her family knew that they had Aboriginal connections, but everybody written it off and said, Oh, well, he married an Indian. So then she met this, this Aboriginal preacher that was in the graveyard, and he gave her the whole story of her other side of her of her family. Me, and all of a sudden it wasn't just oh, he married an Indian. There was a whole genealogy a whole litany, a whole story of the whole side of her nature where this Hudson Bay factor, her great grandfather had connections, and they didn't just consider themselves a bunch of Indians. They all had names and stories and abilities and creativity and told, told stories, you know, and it sort of blew her mind that all of a sudden, her Indian or Aboriginal half came alive by the oral recounting of this Methodist Cree preacher. So it's quite an people like stories people want to hear about their grandfathers or grandmothers were smuggled out in the middle of the night or whatever they had to do. You know, the guy that built the log cabins across from the golf course Alphonse Braddock was a Lithuanian and his first memory was being smuggled out at night because after the Russians had lost the Peninsular War, to the Japanese, the Tsar said no peasants with sons will leave. So they hired a Jewish guy could move from village to village. He woke up in his mother's arms, choking in a mud puddle, because the sled had a piece of dirt in the spring. And they got out and came to Canada and he built this log cabins across on the golf course. Like it's fascinating the stories that we've got what happens in the huge political scene? And then what your mother father great grandmother decided to do what ship to get on bridal ships going to Australia. You know, all these things are fascinating for people. Were brides. Exactly. Yeah, we've all got interesting stories. And like my friend, Ellen Mitchell found out all of a sudden, he married an Indian became alive with his preacher story of a whole other side of her nature of her genealogy of her DNA. You know, people want to know, it's very fascinating. Any more questions? You know, I'm not gonna leave because I've got orchestral practice. I'm not going because I'm bored. Okay, do you guys always do well, that's that's a yes. Okay, thanks, Baba.
Unknown Speaker 42:20
Is that okay? For a little bit. Thank you. Of course. appreciate ya.
Unknown Speaker 42:33
For Canadian brands, you know, they're all black. They'll still be related. Yeah, I don't think they were all related. That came up. But they all came up after having made money in the California gold rush. And Governor General, I mean, Governor Douglas was mulatto. And he wanted blacks that would be loyal, loyal to the British Empire. So he invited them up, because they knew that there was trouble over the San Juan Islands and stuff. So he wanted blokes that would be loyal to the Queen.
Unknown Speaker 43:07
So these two as well.
Unknown Speaker 43:12
I am not 100% Sure about this person. But the woods. These witness with family Yes, for sure. And the Stark family for sure. For the Claiborne's Yes. And the clevers and semis are all the same as the graveyard i work at the yellow ash plots in and amongst the graves. So upon Stark Road, sin Claiborne was a what at the time was a noble profession for a black man was a Pullman Porter was a good a good job that a black man could get that was protected somewhat by a union. He was a dignified gentleman who always walked with a stick because where he was raised in the Deep South, he was always worried about snakes. So even when he was up here, he walked with the stick. And his wife was a stark.
Unknown Speaker 44:06
Did they come up through eastern Canada? No,
Unknown Speaker 44:08
they came up on ships from California after their financial success in the in the California gold rush, but there was a slave bill on the California legislature. And Governor Douglas who was black half black, invited them up knowing that they'd be loyal to the crown. They were the first police force not these people, but there was a block police force in Victoria but southerners didn't go for it. Because our gold rushes in 1858 There's I'm a miner 40 Niner was in 49 and Starks father was actually German. By the terms and conditions today was quite liberated, and loud his son to buy his freedom. seems funny, but in keeping as a slave, the sun drove catalog sheet the miners in the Gold Rush and he was a German guy Stark, who allowed his son to buy freedom that was one mine, but there were the Woods family too. And other many are most of them went back at the end of the Civil War expecting that 40 acres and a mule was going to take care of things. But we know what happened.
Unknown Speaker 45:11
Or their descendants of these families here. So
Unknown Speaker 45:14
a little bit, not much anymore. It
Speaker 2 45:17
will be a start. What happened to her? She was still a resident here. Not all that long ago. Well,
Unknown Speaker 45:23
I know quite a while ago. She died at 109. That's the one that died. Yeah, but that was maybe the 50s or 60s. There was somebody on her daughter's. Yeah. Oh, there she is. Okay. Her daughter, Claiborne Holloway, Bob Holloway. They lived on top of you. She was a stark and she married a man from the South who had a career based on the good graces of Eleanor Roosevelt. Yeah, he was a great like an uncle Reman storyteller. I worked for him in the early 70s. And what it was like working for a cracker boss, who was sent him out all the time to get shot. But he had an Irishman that would slip them information. And you didn't get shot. We used to we used to play with trains with Bob Holman when he Yes, yeah, Bob was an incredible fan. I built the fence for him back in the 70s. He had all the Uncle Remus stories and stories about what it was like to be existing in American civil service, thank God to the intervention and protection of Eleanor Roosevelt, but constantly facing death. And also rejection. Even in northern hotels. We have no rooms. So he always had a big Thunderbird didn't he always had a bad car, and the best electric train set on the island to play there.
Unknown Speaker 46:42
He used to have, he'd have 20 or 30 people come over to his house. And these were the big trains. And we used to just love going there. And, and Bob was amazing, because I used to go and well why, first of all, my Uncle Jack had worked there. And then I inherited the job. And then my brother Patty, and we would go and work at his place. And there were just both he and his wife, Myrtle, who is part of the Stark family just would have so many incredible stories. And they, you know, Bob had been a black professional baseball player, he had been in the First World War and he still had a slight limp from that. He had been involved with starting one of the first black insurance companies in the United States. And as you can imagine, when you started a new company, and you're black, then you're threatened by the powers that be the mob and the big business that doesn't like you competing against them. But he was just amazing to listen to all the stories that he would tell. You written them now. Well, actually, his wife Merkel did write a lot of things down and some of her recordings that things are in the archives, both in Victoria, and also I'm in the library downtown. So she and also as far as black families, a lot of history was the markets were related to the woods is and Darlene Mark Hawk, who is Bob and Eve, Bob was French Canadian Eve was a woods. They live just down the road here. And Darlene and Johnny actually Johnny was in my class. And Darlene was a little bit older, Darlene had quite a large collection of photos. And if you look in the Archives collection, you can see a lot of that information there. And you can you can see at one time, there was quite a few black people who are were in the schools. And in my class, there were a couple because there was Johnny and Mike. Mike Alexander's who is also related to the Starks. And, but a lot of those have moved on. I mean, I don't know. I don't know if there's any there are people who are like, far off descendants, but not that many direct descendants. You know, they've gone to Victoria Vancouver, all over the place. Alberta. I mean, when you grow up, that's where the work is.
Unknown Speaker 49:11
Have you lived on the island all your life and
Unknown Speaker 49:15
most of my life I went to school here
Unknown Speaker 49:22
and then you went away. Well,
Unknown Speaker 49:23
I went to you. And then after usic I went up north and worked in Kitimat and Terrace. Oh, yeah. So those were interesting and fun community very dynamic in those days,
Unknown Speaker 49:35
but home was always here. Pardon? Yes,
Unknown Speaker 49:39
I ended up coming back up a new I ended up coming back here a little bit early.
Unknown Speaker 49:47
You know, I was in Courtney and and then I thought about I took a trip to to Europe for three and a half months and then came back here and with Johnny Christine since fishmarket. Coming Record. Thank you very much
Unknown Speaker 50:08
we'll be at another cemetery Cafe today at 230 at Arts Creek.
Unknown Speaker 50:13
Okay, sorry I'm not very organized so much.
Unknown Speaker 50:22
Sorry you had some good stories. Wayne Taylor. Yes, yes.