350_Marie-Elliot_Ruth-Sandwell_Gulf-Islands-Life_1998.mp3

otter.ai

16.02.2024

no

Outline

Family history and immigration to Vancouver Island.
• Marie Elliot's family has been on Vancouver Island since the 1870s, with ancestors arriving from England and Scotland.
• Great-great grandfather Collinson emigrated from Yorkshire to Canada and later settled in Washington state.

Early settlers and changes on Saltspring Island.
• Collinson and Robson settled on the island, farmed, and established a store and post office, with Collinson becoming a justice of the peace and midwife Bennett providing medical care.
• Malcolm remembers visiting Saltspring Island in the 1970s and 1980s, and there were only a few stores and a post office on the main island.
• Maria describes the changes on the main island between the 1870s and 1970s, including the construction of the first jail, church, and community hall.

Gulf Islands history, population, and transportation.
• In the 1960s, the Gulf Islands experienced a surge in development due to improved ferry service, attracting middle-class vacationers and real estate developers.
• Some island residents wanted more people and a livelier atmosphere, while others desired better roads and infrastructure, leading to taxation and conflict.
• Speaker 2 describes growing up on the island in the 1930s-40s, with limited modern amenities like electricity and indoor plumbing, but with a strong sense of community (150-2000 people in the summer).
• Speaker 1 asks about changes in the island's population and infrastructure over time, including the impact of drought and limited water resources on the island's growth (no paved roads in the 1940s).

Self-sufficiency and local economy on Pender Island in the 1960s.
• Speaker 2 describes the economy on the main island before the 1960s as a subsistence or self-provisioning economy focused on farming and raising animals, with chickens, cows, orchards, and gardens.
• Speaker 2 mentions that some farmers sold their eggs and fruit to nearby towns and cities, and that there were British military retirees who moved to the island and had nice homes without having to work hard.
• Cooperative farming on Pender Island involved sharing resources, including cream, livestock, and equipment, among members.
• Residents of the Gulf Islands in British Columbia, Canada, relied on self-provisioning for food, including seafood, berries, and other wild edibles.

The demographics and cultural blending of early settlers on Saltspring Island.
• Amelia shares knowledge of medicinal plants used by native islanders, including onion and caraway bark, to treat diarrhea and other ailments.
• Settlers in British Columbia blended with indigenous people, leading to cultural exchange and intermarriage.
• Japanese immigrants arrived on Saltspring Island in the early 1900s, working as fishermen and farmers, and eventually owning their own land.

Race relations and Japanese internment in a small island community during WWII.
• Speaker 1 asks Murray about the nuances of race relations on the islands, specifically how their own family perceived people from different racial groups.
• Murray shares that their family was welcoming to people from all racial groups, including Japanese and Native people, and would invite them into their home without hesitation.
• Speaker 2 describes how their family and others were taken away in April 1942, with the Japanese community being rounded up and taken to internment camps.
• The school on the island closed due to the departure of the Japanese community, leaving the children without a place to learn.

Rural life in the 1950s-60s, seasonal activities, and household chores.
• Marie reflects on her childhood summers in a rural area, describing daily activities and seasonal variations.
• Speaker 2 mentions working in the greenhouse and sweeping the floor, but doesn't recall it being onerous.
• Speaker 2's father had a vegetable garden, and the children didn't have to work in it, but they did help with labeling and packing the tomatoes.
• Speaker 1 and Speaker 2 reminisce about their childhood on a farm without electricity or indoor plumbing.

Fishing, communication, and community on Pender Island.
• Speaker 2 describes how their family and others in the community worked to bring in money through fishing and the fish reduction plan at Pender, including setting long lines and selling their catch to a buyer.
• Smelly occupation and dances were a source of community pride in the early days.

Life in a small island community in British Columbia.
• Speaker 2 mentions that the loggers who came to the island had built bunkhouses and taken over some of the Japanese houses, and that they mostly consisted of single men with families.
• Speaker 2 also shares that there were sports activities such as cricket, tennis, and baseball on the island, and that these activities were enjoyed by a broad section of the community, including farmers who had to work on Sundays.
• Speaker 2 describes life in the community during the war, including rationing and the importance of the farm for food and income.
• Speaker 1 asks about conflicts within the community, and Speaker 2 mentions the presence of a single mother working as a telephone operator.
• Grandfather Collinson was a temperamental man with a sense of humor, often involved in petty conflicts with neighbors and Robertson, a chartered sheep farmer.
• Conflicts included personality clashes, political differences, and disputes over a saloon, road work, and a lost license, with grandfather losing and regaining favor at various times.

Early residents of an island in British Columbia.
• Mrs. Deacon and Mrs. Robson had a feud at the hotel in Miner‘s Bay.
• Speaker 2 discusses the history of a family in British Columbia, including their origins in Ontario and their involvement in various industries such as farming and lighthouse keeping.
• James and Matilda Dolly were early owners of a property, with James Campbell being a relative of a notorious Irish bandit.

Unknown Speaker 0:01
Today's Wednesday January the seventh 1998 And this evening I'm talking to Marie Elliot at her home in Victoria. Marie was raised on main island as an as the author of main island and the outer Gulf Islands history. My name is Ruth Sandwell. Okay, Marie, I wanted to I know that you're familiar with the more general history of the island, but I thought we'd begin on a more personal note, and I wanted you to tell me about about your family. You come from too old main island families that

Unknown Speaker 0:38
Yes. Oh, pioneer family, Grandfather call great great grandfather Collins and came around 1870 1871. And the benefits arrived about I believe just before 1890

Unknown Speaker 0:54
Okay. And what was your great great grandfather Collins his name? William

Unknown Speaker 1:00
Tompkins. Collinson.

Unknown Speaker 1:04
So, and did both of those families people from both those families stay on the island from then till till now?

Unknown Speaker 1:14
Yes, there are descendants of both on the island.

Unknown Speaker 1:18
Okay. Do you know why each of those people came each each of them?

Unknown Speaker 1:25
The Bennett came because a relative had already come and a relative that own the property that is now going to be a park Campbell.

Unknown Speaker 1:34
And they were related to what was

Unknown Speaker 1:36
his name? He was James Campbell. Yeah. And he was, I believe, an uncle of Thomas NLC Bennett, who came and settled right next to him and then at bay have named after the bandits and then call it why did he come? So it just the relative that came he he's been described as a gentleman in the census, so he must have had more money than the others. He doesn't seem to work anything. And he owned, I believe he owned part of Samuel one of the other islands as well. He had the property. And Grandfather call us and just came to homestead. He knew Jacob hack. And from a he met up with him in the caribou. And he may have come there may have been a great line that encouraged him to come.

Unknown Speaker 2:34
And where did they come from?

Unknown Speaker 2:39
to new grandfather was from Yorkshire and had emigrated to gray County in Canada West. And then he left home when he was about 18 and came west to the United States and got to Bellingham or whatever was Bellingham then and then came across and worked at New Westminster and homesteaded at Zoomers near the hit it when it was surveyed for an Indian reservation. His response was on the Indian Reservation and he had to move in this prairie

Unknown Speaker 3:16
mostly before 1876 Oh, yeah. That's very interesting. So, it was your great grandfather Collinson, who was the gentleman's where I'm just trying to keep you straight in the Bennett, who was worked more as a farmer.

Unknown Speaker 3:32
Great, no the other way around great, great grandfather. Collinson arrived with a wife and two children by that time his wife was native. And he came with Robson apparently, as a partner, they both settled close to one another in the center of the island. You can see that home get on that map. And they came to find land to settle.

Unknown Speaker 4:00
So what what kind of farms did they have

Unknown Speaker 4:06
Nick farm, just to support themselves, they have cows, and it was mainly just to support themselves initially, a grandfather would collect oil, fish oil to sell in New Westminster ports, greasing the skids for logging later on. And they did what they could grandfather because he could read and write he became a justice of the peace. He had a store and he became the first postmaster on the island. Where was the store? This his store was down at minus say, he moved down there from his first reaction. He moved down to minus de

Unknown Speaker 4:51
how many children did they leave?

Unknown Speaker 4:53
He had nine and about four of them died. Let's see.

Unknown Speaker 5:00
And what about the other side of the family that they

Unknown Speaker 5:03
they settled at Bennett day. But they ran the point company hotel when Morbihan pipe Bill hit two really eight team notified. And they operated that until about 1898 99. And then they went back to their farm and stayed there and raised a family and grandmother Bennett was a midwife on the island when they had an MC farm and apparently they took in boarders during the summer time.

Unknown Speaker 5:38
So still a very varied kind of, of occupation. Yeah. Did you who have those have? Did you know Marie, in your own life,

Unknown Speaker 5:53
I remember the the original settlers had passed away. So I remember their children. I remember. Great Grandfather Colin sins daughter, Margaret, is daughter Emma. His I do. I think I remember Malmo, but I could be wrong. I think it may be from photograph. I'm a bit hazy on that. And then on the on the Dennett side, I remember the Fred Dennett and Johnny and, and Jim Bennett, this son, and then their children. And Jim Bennett's daughters still come to the island in the

Unknown Speaker 6:44
summertime. They're not related to the Bennett's on Saltspring No,

Unknown Speaker 6:49
no, they're the same vintage but not they're not related.

Unknown Speaker 6:55
Okay, Maria, I wanted to ask you. If someone were to ask you to describe the changes on main island, the changes between the 1870s when those first non native settlers, some of whom I know it's you know, had had native wives and between until about 1970. What would you what changes during that time would you think most worthy of of commenting on

Unknown Speaker 7:23
the important thing was it may not have became the center of the Gulf Islands? It got the first for the first jail, the first church. It had the store at the post office. So all the other outer Gulf Islands Galliano tender to turn up would grow or get their mail, release rely on then Ireland. Initially.

Unknown Speaker 7:46
Can I just ask you for some dates here?

Unknown Speaker 7:49
I'll carry on. I'd have to be there in my book. Okay, you can get there. But the time maybe I'm maybe the first. The post office, I believe was 1875. The first floor was 1876 You'll have to check out the

Unknown Speaker 8:06
state but in the sort of the day in this quarter. Yeah. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 8:12
And then the 8080 83 was first school. Oh, yeah. 1897 first church, community hall in 1900. Mail the post office was the important thing

Unknown Speaker 8:28
that so people would pick actually pick up their mail from

Unknown Speaker 8:31
you would think nothing of taking a whole day off to come to me know and then getting the mail and they would pick up through other friends mail as well. So

Unknown Speaker 8:39
I guess that would bring people in as well for this for the to, to shop maybe doesn't give the right impression, but there was one store there,

Unknown Speaker 8:47
too, so to do it, and there was also a saloon and the system was also boarded people overnight if they had to wait for the theory or whatnot. So there was a lot of inter Island communication in the early years. And then as each island got their own facilities, their own work their own mail service. They weren't quite as cohesive they remain brandy but they weren't quite as cohesive because he didn't rely on on one another that much anymore. And then the ferry service was good. There was always say eight late 1890s. In the summertime a ferry would make three stops at main island one at point comfort color hotel guests, one at Monterey Bay and one at Village Bay. Now these

Unknown Speaker 9:39
be coming from Victoria medical point we're already familiar with Vancouver as well at

Unknown Speaker 9:44
known as Vancouver was growing. It was something that was that middle class element growing up one of the holidays.

Unknown Speaker 9:49
Also from that early time it was a holiday destination as it is now. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 9:56
But then it sort of stayed that way. Holiday is self sufficient population around 200. Until about 1960 when there was a larger population and more money, that middle class able to buy vacation property. And with the interest in the Gulf Islands, real estate developers arrive to buy up quite cheaply in some cases, large chunks of property. The old behind us, we're going off the ferry were put in areas where people

Unknown Speaker 10:38
but 62 BC Ferries Yes, took over and did the service improve? Like was that sort of the dynamic driving this this change in the 60s? If

Unknown Speaker 10:47
there hadn't been any ferry? It wouldn't have happened, we wouldn't have the development that we did have.

Unknown Speaker 10:53
Do you have a sense of the the feeling of the people on the island towards ferry service in the 1960s? Maria, I just asked because I was reading a newspaper article about the commented on the lobbying on the by the part of the residents for better, better transportation. And then by the late 1960s, I read another newspaper article that said it had turned out to be too much of a good thing. And the residents were Was that was that Charlamagne? Oh, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 11:25
that's a few merchants on the island wanted to see more people, of course. And yeah, they I think some of the people wanted it to be livelier. They thought that that was progress to have more people. But a lot of the people were from the city and they expect better roads. We got what they arrive, we got a fire department, volunteer fire department, we've got a health center,

Unknown Speaker 11:49
which was that was in the 60s or 70s.

Unknown Speaker 11:52
I think it was in the 70s By then, because this was all involved taxation. People dug their heels in. But yeah, it came but I don't think it would have come nearly as fast that the old timers have been just left alone, you know, we would have coped, they would have coped on their own. But the new new newcomers realize it was important to have fire protection.

Unknown Speaker 12:18
When you you were born in 1938. So when you were a child on the island, what was it like then in terms of did you have electricity, for example, when

Unknown Speaker 12:28
you were not initially, we've actually had a down coal power plant. But no indoor bathroom until I was about Tim, my there. Were there workplaces. There were homes on the island that did that were more modern, but we were we were a little bit more rustic. And my father went to row format. And he took over some of the Japanese greenhouses when they were relocated, and raised tomatoes, as well. hothouse tomatoes.

Unknown Speaker 12:59
Okay, I want to ask you, I want to remember to ask you about the Japanese on the island, because that was an important part of the history. I just want to go back a little bit to what you were saying about there being very good boat and ferry service. Steamer service, I guess it was in the late 19th century and perhaps the early 20th century. Did that decline after the First World War? Are you aware

Unknown Speaker 13:25
of them? I think always was three days a week. And then that was that was pretty good. And the reason we had it was because the CPR had the male contract. So they had to deliver the mail. Three days, two days a week. Yeah. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 13:48
All right. I was asking you about about changes. So I guess just the population, especially the summer population must be a big, one of the big differences is that you have any idea of what the population of main island is now like 150. And what do you think that goes up to in the summer?

Unknown Speaker 14:06
Okay, some say around 2000? I'm not sure it's quite that high. I certainly I guess 1500 Anyway, to be honest, the 2000s in the summertime, it's one it's a second smallest island. It has limited water resources. So you have to watch it to not go if you've got a home there. You're not going to invite a lot of relatives over the summer if you don't have enough water for them.

Unknown Speaker 14:34
I guess August and September tend to be the drought times in the Gulf and yeah. Okay. What about roads on the island? When you were young on the island didn't say the 40s. Were there any paved roads at all?

Unknown Speaker 14:52
No, they were all gravel. Some of them had a an oil coating that made them fairly good, but my I thought it was a vote for him and I sort of know what somebody's inside. Yeah, what what it was like they think it did best to keep the ditches and open and the brush cut back and then that Kochi Matic to look after the roads and run a small farm and raise tomatoes. This worked part time on the road then we

Unknown Speaker 15:26
did a lot of people do in those years before the 1960s working seasonally on the roads as they were in the early days. And we

Unknown Speaker 15:33
only had to, but I think two other helpers to help is

Unknown Speaker 15:45
if I asked you to describe the economy on main island, I guess you've talked about sort of the subsistence or self provisioning, as we call it. economy that was focused sort of on the land, what would those farms were people that what would they usually consist of? I think you mentioned just accounts where they were

Unknown Speaker 16:07
the next farm. So you had chickens you had you had a cow for milk. You had an orchard? You can and preserved the fruit. You might ship. Several of the old farmers Mike, again then at my grandfather, the Robson's and the deacons had apple orchards, they would ship apples to Victoria. And my father remembers the packing house and then they made an arrangement with the wholesaler here that at Christmas time he was shipped a barrel for Christmas and save that to the family pack of sawdust. And that was a big event. There were British military, retired military people who moved on to the other than they had pension. So they had fairly nice home and didn't really have to work hard

Unknown Speaker 17:08
with the show but there was still like have gardens and vegetable gardens.

Unknown Speaker 17:11
Yeah. And they had they took part in the fall fail or they'd have a flower fair. And they sort of kept the level of the society in a nice nice level. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 17:25
Did Did people sell the eggs? For the from the chickens to know to remember them?

Unknown Speaker 17:31
I'm not sure they should. I think some of them did ship eggs off. I think my parents did at one point. And they sent cream to the Saltzman Creamery to

Unknown Speaker 17:42
that they do the I guess but the steam would come and then they send it to that. So were they you know, it was the coop that Creamery? Yeah, were they members of the cooler I guess they were doing that.

Unknown Speaker 17:57
I've got a crane can downstairs we've got white spot on it. I'm not sure that we weren't they weren't sending cream in there. I don't know who it would be. I don't know how it ended up in the family. But yeah, Cooper white flour cream

Unknown Speaker 18:12
can. What about livestock? Have

Unknown Speaker 18:15
they had the book? Milk cows? Not so much beef cattle, mostly jerseys. They were they were very proud of the jersey herds on Pender Island. And the Robson had Jersey cows as well. Any pigs Yep. All right. Yes. Always a pig a few pigs chickens. Yeah, everything that you need to pick up family going so did people

Unknown Speaker 18:41
slaughter their own animals? Very Yep. Oh, there

Unknown Speaker 18:45
were sheep as well. Yeah. They would usually get together if you had to kill a pig or or a cow. There might be one farmer who was better than another at doing this and so they would get together and do that. And then in turn, they would go and help with the hane or whatever. So it was Was there

Unknown Speaker 19:09
a new one Saltspring through the 30s and later there was one person who had the the Combine later I guess it was a combine at first it was just the you know to cut the hay was that what would happen here

Unknown Speaker 19:26
he Billy Deacon had a steam Thrasher that at the pioner Museum and Saanich now and they would tow that around to the various fun was it for at a time Yeah. I think they shared what they could you say anyone had machine?

Unknown Speaker 19:53
What about the the other kinds of self provisioning things scripture like hunting and gathering think of it what what did people make use of the the environment the natural environment? Yes. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 20:11
They might what they fished a lot of them fished almost always went out and got a deer in the fall one or two deer that they would can these

Unknown Speaker 20:22
two deer on Main yeah

Unknown Speaker 20:27
and and shoot ducks to go duck hunting and in the fall Wow,

Unknown Speaker 20:31
what about clams?

Unknown Speaker 20:32
He they were taken to see food that way. There were always students we have one British military fellow Captain Wah started the oysters brought some seed oysters to which was always today or David Cove now and started the oysters and they spread around the island. But oysters don't grow very well in the federal Gulf Islands The waters too cold it's only been about two years and about 50 years that they actually seed it really they grow do much better around qualicum Park though where it's warmer

Unknown Speaker 21:09
so the clams are

Unknown Speaker 21:13
they would go and get clanfield to like them would go and get them

Unknown Speaker 21:16
so the was it just your family married it wasn't didn't really like the seafood or did they eat octopus or

Unknown Speaker 21:24
you know any of those so they I really don't know what the Robson tour or the deacons did I don't think of them as I don't recall seeing lots of shells around them. You know, you always had the oyster shells in your garden or somewhere nearby and I don't think of them as doing that. For some reason, although they were there.

Unknown Speaker 21:47
What about berries, which is what

Unknown Speaker 21:50
always blackberries, blackberries and then they would have raspberries in the garden and my grandfather had a huge market garden he had according to my dad every kind of every kind of fruit tree and and cane fruit as well at the store and all this is the banner. Okay, that one there was raspberries, blueberries. And then they raced they have strawberries and then the orchard has pears, plums, greengage plums, three or four different kinds of apples. Just incredible. And then they had tomato outdoor tomato

Unknown Speaker 22:30
was there did they did the people at any time like from the 1870s Onward Do you Do you know people used like tree bark or do they use herbs or anything that grow naturally or did they use any of the you know I'm

Unknown Speaker 22:45
sure the native get Amelia to artisan note is knowledgeable about some of this she's a native lady on the island mill are our family were British and Irish origin so they use they brought with them the knowledge that they have in England of medications and things and I think they can do more to find whatever they needed I don't know Billy Deacon used to love onions he claimed onion cure call that sort of thing. Yeah. But not it was more than needed to be cut the gathered the cast Cara bark. And in the spring of preventing diarrhea, I think was one away

Unknown Speaker 23:38
with these native people who lived on the island on the beach. Where's the reserve?

Unknown Speaker 23:44
What how employ you?

Unknown Speaker 23:47
And so did they. I'd like to ask you a little bit. There a couple of other sort of economic questions that I want to ask you. But I do want to ask you now about the different kinds of people and I wanted to ask you what different kinds there were. Someone was to ask you that their

Unknown Speaker 24:08
nationality or in in social levels or

Unknown Speaker 24:12
whatever, Marie, I will leave it to you to see what you think is what mattered to people. Like what distinctions did people make? I guess that's what I'm asking.

Unknown Speaker 24:22
It was an evolution. Initially, the first step was have native y. So they're the first settlers were in around 1861 62. Let's agree, not McGreevy, but Myers had Christian Meyer had a native wife. And then he moved on to new earth. Mr. Hewitt, just to see in a sense was steamboat captain over there, well thought out and then they also owned the central property and James Bay later on. So there was there was definitely a need You're white blending initially, and then the settlers came. Robson and Collinson were English and call us and had already had a native wife he hit. She was a very young Stoney about 15. And they lived together in the Fraser Valley. Henry Jordison came as a lay housekeeper. He had a native wife he had been in the Gold Rush as well. Jacob had been in a gold rush he had a native wife. Then they blended with the new the newcomers. By 1890. The bandits arrived and a few more families who were just great lower middle class English because they were coming out to start a lot of good a new life and they were willing to work hard. Then you also have the remittance man

Unknown Speaker 26:05
arriving sir. Starting boat when it late 1918 88

Unknown Speaker 26:12
The first one the first CTR came out the first Cray Leonard Higgs and balding Arthur Spalding or on it and they went to South Pender. Now they went there because most of the land elsewhere has been taken up of a reaction so they found land or sell tender. So a lot of other remittance men join them there. And on to Turner, the Drummond and the pain paint are very large family. They were on Sittard and Warburton pike with down there. And so we do have that element coming in. And they they didn't have to work hard, but they did. The following had a beautiful form of self tender, very large five letter cake terrified at the very end of self tender. Well, then what happens then you get military retired veterans arriving as well. Before

Unknown Speaker 27:07
this before the First World War or after the Boer

Unknown Speaker 27:11
War, India and Boer War, I think they're coming out.

Unknown Speaker 27:19
So did they mix with the other like the lower middle class working people was there

Unknown Speaker 27:26
they're too small you've run into the minister or mail on mail day boat, a handful you all got to know one another. You couldn't keep yourself separated

Unknown Speaker 27:37
to make distinctions.

Unknown Speaker 27:41
Not that much on me, because you have to have the Japanese elements who had arrived before 1900 as well. Okay, blended in very well. We had one of the larger population thought bring had the largest. But I think we had the next largest group on me.

Unknown Speaker 27:55
Do you know how many families there were?

Unknown Speaker 28:00
I'm not sure that between five and 10 families.

Unknown Speaker 28:03
And so did what happened on Saltspring is that first of all, they were Japanese men came and just single men, or they could have been married but they lived alone and started working and fishing and then and then began to own land. Did that happen? Yeah. And then were there there were actual families with the kids and the kids would go to school and

Unknown Speaker 28:25
they work. Initially they work on the farm. One group work on the sumeeth work on the D conformability. Conform. We had many many invitees on on the bandits farm and connections on my uncle's farm. David Bennett farm the data actually owned property their own land and Cunego no data. And then his son John started the company though had a farm at miners they have raised tomatoes during the gather raise tomatoes at Campbell Bay. They actually own their land. What

Unknown Speaker 29:12
year did they start with? You mentioned that they came before the turn of the century and then when did the families they

Unknown Speaker 29:21
almost right away and I don't I've never really investigated when the wives survived it all. I don't recall many single men at all they were all families and they they had a co op of poultry Co Op initially and they brought in their their feed and raised chicken. Then there was a Seoul Korea delay dinner day

Unknown Speaker 29:49
for fish

Unknown Speaker 29:51
are hairy the salted herring is not that bad. There were a number of them on North Galliano Island as well. And then they flipped from From chickens to green to raising tomato, in the 30, you had a large, you know what? It probably was profitable. I have tomatoes at that time. The rate was not that high they could get, they could raise tomatoes. They could ripen faster. There's an in Vancouver, the Fraser Valley.

Unknown Speaker 30:19
So they would have a good market. So did they marry it in the same way that native and non native people had married in the in the, in the 1870s? And earlier? Did the Japanese people did the men marry non Japanese women or native women? No,

Unknown Speaker 30:38
no, no, there were. There was no intermarriage at all.

Unknown Speaker 30:44
How were they, you know, how were they received by the the rest of the European and British very well

Unknown Speaker 30:51
on main island, because they were so willing to help with hanging with working on a community hall with any community projects. They all they've mended. Very nice.

Unknown Speaker 31:05
What I wanted to ask you Murray, is about about the nuances of the race, relations on the islands. You've mentioned, the white people, the British people, and the two sort of different classes generally, you know, two general classes, and then about Japanese people and about Native people. And I'm just really curious from your own experience, like in your own family, if, what if you could characterize the feelings that your own family have towards people in different racial groups? And what I'm really wanting to find out is just about those kinds of distinctions that we make, like, for example, there's some people that I have as friends, but perhaps I wouldn't invite them in for tea or something. You know what I mean, and I'm trying to, would, would your parents invite if there was a Japanese family living down the down the road? Would they, you know, come in, in the same way that the people who weren't Japanese or is the community just too small to make those kinds of? I think she

Unknown Speaker 32:06
was you just couldn't. There were families who were at loggerheads with one another. They were they were white family. But the we in fact, didn't have Japanese living on our on, my grandfather had thought or Japanese living on her property. They weren't live live just down the world. The children came and played with me as a child. I was not allowed to go and play at their house. I was still too little to do that. But their children went to school with my aunt, they all went to school. When they were relocated, the school had to shut down because they would have white children.

Unknown Speaker 32:40
What happened here a baby, you could just tell us what the vote what happened in 1941, and 1942. Well,

Unknown Speaker 32:50
my father was a knock at the door late at night, one night, and there was one of DC police at the door asking my father to come and help round them up because they were the first group of men were being taken away, I believe in February early on. And my dad was in a very difficult position because he was helping to round up his friends. And yet, if he'd refused, he probably could have been thrown in jail for refusing to flee. So he had to go late at night to show the police where these various boundaries were. And he took the man away and they were just guarding a tomato they were getting they were all in there. In the starting houses, all the little tomato plants were all set. And the men were taken away. So they had the Chinese had to come in and take over radium and Japanese and Chinese did not get along well. So that was an insult right there. Then the families themselves were taken away later on in April I think reprints of Mary took them all away at once, I think, could you remember?

Unknown Speaker 33:56
No? No, I

Unknown Speaker 33:58
Yes. I vaguely remember the being with Japanese seeing Japanese in various places. Because my my father would visit them and I would go with them but I was only four. Therefore that's all I can remember. And this is just what my father told me how to

Unknown Speaker 34:19
cook Do you have any sense of of what the community felt about the Japanese leaving a lot of people

Unknown Speaker 34:25
were very upset. They all went down on wisdom like goodbye to move on.

Unknown Speaker 34:31
So the school closed with the only school on the island and

Unknown Speaker 34:35
the island for a year or so.

Unknown Speaker 34:38
So what what did the children do?

Unknown Speaker 34:42
They called they just didn't go to school. Couldn't find

Unknown Speaker 34:49
that but then the school reopened disappointed again. Marie what I'd really like to know, I don't know if you can do that. If I would really like to have some sense of what life was like save of anytime before the 1960s. And I was wondering if you could try to think about from your own experience, but from also from your knowledge about the kinds of activities that somebody might participate in, in a day, like in one day. And then I also want to ask you about the seasonal the seasonal variations. But what just to get some sense, especially for people who don't have any sense about what it's living like living in a rural area where there's you don't go off to the office every morning after driving in traffic and stuff. What can you reach back into your memory and think about what it would be like like when you first woke up, and

Unknown Speaker 35:47
while it was safe, definitely seasonal, your day more controlled by the season, whether you liked it or not. In the summertime, you would work wake up early. For me. There were the greenhouses. You had to go up in my father without working on the road you had to go up as the greenhouse warmed up early in the morning, you opened up the ventilators, for for the greenhouses. And then when he came home at nighttime, you might help picking the tomatoes in the greenhouse. And during the day, you could go to the beach and we'll be swimming at Bennett Bay. We've got some of the nicest beaches on the island. I mean, Island, Bennett Day is right now part of the park the new park, and that was a wonderful place to spend the summer. We always had our school picnics there. And we I spent a lot of time at Bennett Bay as a child, and I might own children. I didn't raise my own children, they're in the summertime as well. It's such a nice shallow beat. So that would be your summer and then your winter was naturally not as energetic. We just had a Delco powerplant we didn't have hydro until 1954 So we play cars a lot listen to the radio there was no key b

Unknown Speaker 37:19
Did you have to work a lot besides, you mentioned doing a bit of work in the greenhouse but did you have you know did you have specific housekeeping things that you had to do or feed the chickens are

Unknown Speaker 37:32
we you know, we swept the floor and but it wasn't onerous, so it wasn't a lot we didn't we didn't have much of a garden I always wish we had a lawn and and I always I like to garden but we never had much of a garden at my old house.

Unknown Speaker 37:49
Was there a vegetable garden?

Unknown Speaker 37:51
Yeah, my father had one with the greenhouse at all. It was a beautiful garden.

Unknown Speaker 37:56
Now did you get did your children have to work it or detainment mainly you Did you remember we

Unknown Speaker 38:01
didn't have to work in the vegetable garden we did have to work in to getting the tomatoes started once you plant them you have to hang twine from the from wires and tie them around the plant so that you twist them around the coin as they grow. You have to take the suckers out to keep this plant gone. And then the West looking after the ventilators every day they have to pit with tomatoes and you pack them we had one of our jobs was to be able to create and put the labels on so

Unknown Speaker 38:34
really wouldn't create so good. But it was very

Unknown Speaker 38:38
idea that I don't think of it as being very hard work. There are some of the old timers Wilbert Deacon I remember especially remembered his childhood as nothing but hard work to really unmeaning on me. My father didn't have that memory. Although he worked. He, his parents were kind loving parents and and there were seven children. So there will be lots around to help with the work.

Unknown Speaker 39:09
What do you do? Did you talk to Billy Deacon?

Unknown Speaker 39:12
I don't Wilbert I, his son. I knew very well. He was a good friend of the family and he just passed away a couple of years ago.

Unknown Speaker 39:21
Do you know what kind of work he complained about doing? Oh,

Unknown Speaker 39:25
I just I would just be fun work whether milking the cows picking stone cladding was picked up don't was one of the ones he hated. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 39:37
I've heard that a lot from some of his old people. Really, really big.

Unknown Speaker 39:42
So that would be your winter on so the family stick was always close together.

Unknown Speaker 39:48
So can I just ask you a couple of more details. So you had no electricity for the early years? When you had the the power plant could you what could you run off that

Unknown Speaker 39:59
you Have you had your light?

Unknown Speaker 40:02
Was it mainly for the phone for the greenhouse? In

Unknown Speaker 40:06
the house? The greenhouse didn't have any any power whatsoever. I think the refrigerator was propane. Yeah. Remember, it wasn't it wasn't electricity because electricity didn't go all day long. And then you had a wood stove. And you also had a propane tank or gas camp stove that you would use on hot in the summertime. You wouldn't light the fire in a hot afternoon.

Unknown Speaker 40:31
So you had a wood stove in the kitchen. Yeah. Yeah. And a fireplace in the living room. was just it wasn't an open fireplace. It was.

Unknown Speaker 40:39
It was cold in the winter. You have a bedroom for cold. We had little caught coal oil heaters to heat the bed and just before we went to bed at night

Unknown Speaker 40:49
at coal oil lamps,

Unknown Speaker 40:51
did you say yeah, I thought we did have them. We had gas lamps

Unknown Speaker 41:05
and no indoor plumbing. In Chile, it works. Very well.

Unknown Speaker 41:13
Did you? Did you have a lot to do with boating yourself? You mentioned we're down to the beach. Did you have we have

Unknown Speaker 41:21
a boat to play around with now? We just swam. My father had a vote later on. But we know we were not voters.

Unknown Speaker 41:33
I guess some people just were and some people weren't too so yeah,

Unknown Speaker 41:37
the pain family for instance was love to sail there was a great bunch of them download it was not nothing I'm going to call it today for our maple Bay for over data. And the hall they call it they had a boat mod had a boat there is some of the English upper middle class in Grafton mod Captain rod. He had a boat. So they were there was a voting elements, but not all family

Unknown Speaker 42:13
that people went fishing.

Unknown Speaker 42:16
To earn a living, they did my grandfather, there was a fish reduction plan at Pender. And they also were buying their a buyer apakah would come over from the mainland. And for a while just to keep body and soul together. My father and grandfather and his father would set out long lines in the morning and gather them up at night with a cat and dog patient and taking them over to the reduction plant.

Unknown Speaker 42:48
How did that work? Marie? I don't really understand the fish reduction plant I know that it was there on Pender? Is that what people from the community would go and fish and like you could do it as a small as a small Fisher person. Just go and do

Unknown Speaker 43:06
it over? Yeah, you you just did what you could to bring in money.

Unknown Speaker 43:10
So it wasn't but I guess there were large with the canneries have anything to do with this or what actually does the fish reduction plan do

Unknown Speaker 43:17
make bone meal? You know, we're a fertilizer.

Unknown Speaker 43:21
So it would take fish that people wouldn't like not like hearing

Unknown Speaker 43:26
probably got oil off it too. I'm not sure. A very smelly occupation that when the men came because the dances that now with there'll be a Miskin no matter how much they would have been washed and the women wouldn't dance with them.

Unknown Speaker 43:45
Do your will that? So it did do you know when that closed that fish reduction plan and you know, the years that it was in operation at all? It's I know it's panning an operation in

Unknown Speaker 43:53
the 40s probably in the early 50s. Maybe at some point.

Unknown Speaker 43:59
Okay, what about you talked about people, especially in the early days going in boats a lot between the islands and that and people being drawn to main island? What kinds of communication were there through your you know, your childhood when you were on Main? When people didn't visit as much between islands? Is that your sense? They

Unknown Speaker 44:20
know they don't did they still would come may have the good community hall and they would come We 24th of May was traditionally celebrated that name they would come to me for that. And then they would there would be a dance in the evening. Or July 1 was celebrated but not so much as an inter Island thing I don't think and then they would go down to when to turn up got their hall to turn it came up to me and raise money for their own Hall and then what they had their hall. There's some of the senators will Go down there and two dancers. The best musicians were Pete Georgeson, and Nelly, who? The Pete was the son of the lighthouse keeper. It's a turner. And so they will come up people come out and play at the main hall.

Unknown Speaker 45:21
Would you remember this? yourself? I don't remember. No. Okay, because I know my

Unknown Speaker 45:26
time. Yeah, in my head. Mostly what I remember growing up there with the logging group that came to the island to lock the island in the 19, late 1940s 1950. And so they brought a whole new society with them. They were the drinking. Dancing, a very lively band, who injected more energy into the island. Where did they stay? They had they built bunk houses, and they took over any some of the Japanese houses. No one family didn't dare. They single.

Unknown Speaker 46:01
We did mostly single guys.

Unknown Speaker 46:05
Not all of them. No, some of them had families as well. As the children were going to school. This was more like who? They I don't know where they came from. Let me see. For one, what family? The wife was the sister of one of the women on the island. I don't know how they arrived.

Unknown Speaker 46:30
But did they arrive like on mass? What

Unknown Speaker 46:34
team? It was mostly one big company. I guess one collard was one as a principal logger.

Unknown Speaker 46:43
And they must have got what were they logging them?

Unknown Speaker 46:45
They were logging the timber there.

Unknown Speaker 46:48
But there's no Crown land.

Unknown Speaker 46:49
There's no there aren't laws and private land.

Unknown Speaker 46:51
So people sold the law, the laws of the property? Yeah. Well, that's interesting. So it must have been kind of a boon for the women.

Unknown Speaker 47:02
Yeah. And in one way, I guess. But there were more dances and there was baseball games in the evening. And

Unknown Speaker 47:10
had there been those those kinds of like, sporting, like, community activities before the loggers came like two people get together for baseball or for I know on Saltspring they'll play rugby, rugby, or did they have a lot of interest in sports? Were they

Unknown Speaker 47:30
I got pictures of a cricket team that my grandfather had with native and white playing. And there were there was a lot of tennis in the 1930s or something like five tennis courts on the island. And they will go I think we even played at Saltspring and tennis tournament tender.

Unknown Speaker 47:50
Was that a kind of upper class kind of thing? We did

Unknown Speaker 47:53
everything. Yeah, they might have my father played No, it was it was a broad class section Jacob had played that they accidentally but it was the ones who had more leisure time that will go to the other islands and play tennis I guess. A lot of farmers had to work on Sunday as they were Kennison Galliano as well.

Unknown Speaker 48:19
What other community kinds of things went on

Unknown Speaker 48:25
the dances were the important thing. And then there was the fall fair, every year. The war during the war there was Red Cross and women were involved raising money for red cross selling Wernher von and the major community event three times a week with their rivals a boat you always went down to work that many telephones initially that was one way to find out who was pregnant who was who was going for edek are coming for any reason someone has died who was off island they will be brought home in a coffin and they will do the deal or whether it be a new baby come brought back from Vancouver or whatever was a really a wonderful social thing. And and then you all you waited for the mail afterwards to where the mail was sorted right then and there by the mailman and you waited and got a mail and in October, two day, three times a week.

Unknown Speaker 49:30
Was life hard for the women, especially in those early years? Did you get any sense of that talking to those

Unknown Speaker 49:35
I can take for some it must have been hard during the war, especially when you were rationed. I don't know what my mother traded butter and sugar coupons. My aunt has made butter a mama get better from her and give her her sugar keep on to something that way. We never felt underprivileged. I think we got by my father had a steady part time job in the world. So there was always that income. And then he there was always a farm there was always milk and vegetables. And our hope was the orchard. So we were okay. I don't remember any family as dirt poor, I never remembered. Anyway, children coming to school on thinking, Oh, no, they're miserable. Now we're all sort of on an even level that way. There was a single mother with two children, but she seemed to manage. She worked. She worked as a telephone operator. Yeah. Because the autumn because we could have a D fairly decent farm if you're willing to work you okay?

Unknown Speaker 51:02
I have a friend who says that the essence of communities conflict. And I was wondering if you if there were any issues or you know, it's so hard to say no, in a small community because everything tends to appear to be really personal. But were there any if you you know,

Unknown Speaker 51:21
what do you think of that one? There was always calm.

Unknown Speaker 51:26
Yeah. What kinds of things with with the conflicts about? Well,

Unknown Speaker 51:28
I've got home my great, great grandfather's notice out of the archives, and he was a great fighter. It could be anything from the road to wanting someone else's preemption. He said, they figured they hadn't proved it up, and they've abandoned it. personality conflicts, a big one was the saloon. Some people didn't want a saloon nearby. And they they were quite happy when Robson lost his license because they happen to sell liquor to apart native in the 1890. But he got the license back again. And after a couple of years. The road work was always a political thing. Depends on depending on whether you voted for the right person. My grandfather, eventually it got to be a non political thing. My grandfather was a row Foreman and he had to hand it over to another fellow. At one point, yeah, after an election, he lost it and he had to hand it over to another fellow. So he very generously handed over all the shovels and picks and everything that he had. But when the next election grandfather got it back again. He didn't get the picks and shovels back by somehow.

Unknown Speaker 52:59
So did he resolve that?

Unknown Speaker 53:02
Oh, they I think they did. Most of them had a good sense of humor and and they get it they never came to knockdown blows. My grandfather grandfather Collinson was one of the more temperamental ones and there are lots of letters in the police files about him.

Unknown Speaker 53:20
Things from a coral big

Unknown Speaker 53:24
claim Robson, the chartered sheep. I think Robson claimed that he had shot the sheep. And then he didn't. When his wife died, he got Mrs deacons to do some sewing for him. And she claimed he didn't pay her and it just goes on and on all petty little things all the time, because he was a justice of the peace. I think he may have been picked on more than others and because he didn't like Robertson having hand mops and didn't get seem to get along. They were partners originally but there was a falling out there and grandfather moved down to miners day. And there always seem to be nagging at one another all the way through and the police constable eventually cottoned on to all this and didn't take thing quite as seriously after a while. The grandfather died in 1911. And that is that. But there was Mrs. Deacon at Village day did not get along with Mrs. Robson, when she was running the hotel at minus Bay and Mrs. Deacon ferryboat would not she would not come down to the war, the ferryboat hope to Billy Bay and they would roll out to pick up their passengers or whatever he would not count things like that.

Unknown Speaker 54:58
Okay, I'd like to ask You are one of the things you do when when main island got the telephone service?

Unknown Speaker 55:06
It was early on it's in my book. I can't remember. I think it was about night can you can? There was a single phone and then the lighthouse got a phone are they on to foment there?

Unknown Speaker 55:25
Okay, so have you ever heard of these people at or breweries? Yeah. Who are they?

Unknown Speaker 55:31
Mr. Atterbury was a carpenter mistake. I think he made his living by a carpenter. You know, copper, dirty hats. They had twin boys, Ricky and Ronnie and another son, Jim. A boy. And they lived. And he I guess he built that house. Didn't he built the house at Bennett Bay?

Unknown Speaker 55:50
Do you know about what what year or even what decade was looking at?

Unknown Speaker 55:57
Okay, we're gonna go to school, probably about 1946 4546.

Unknown Speaker 56:06
Do you know his wife? Did you know his wife?

Unknown Speaker 56:08
I Yes. I knew I knew her like very much, but I can't remember her name now.

Unknown Speaker 56:13
Did they live on Main for long? Not a long time. For what? Four years? Maybe? Okay, just because they were one of the owners of the property. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 56:25
I think they were. He built that house.

Unknown Speaker 56:29
Okay, so who is David Bennett as opposed to Thomas Bennett?

Unknown Speaker 56:33
David data. If Thomas

Unknown Speaker 56:42
and Thomas Bennett was one of the is that

Unknown Speaker 56:45
you're here with your vicino. Dammit. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 56:49
And you've mentioned William and Margaret Deacon. Yeah. Can you tell me a bit more about them?

Unknown Speaker 57:00
Billick you're thinking in your talk even in the original? I don't know that much about them. They were from Ontario. And they had come to New Westminster. And then they came to village today. And now I've got the information in my book the background on them. And then they had a family Wilbert. No bit. I'm sorry, Billy. Billy was a son. And he and I think another son was a police officer and you're listening to Billy develop the phone in the center of the island. And a very large farm, and then his son well, birth and I Okay, he was a good friend of my father. Okay,

Unknown Speaker 57:49
were they wealthy?

Unknown Speaker 57:52
Um, just land wise. I don't think they had a lot of money otherwise.

Unknown Speaker 57:59
And they were from England for the

Unknown Speaker 58:02
A to my Glock. I think we may have been Irish and I think they settle. They there may have been a military land grant in Ontario first and then they left out and came out to to us.

Unknown Speaker 58:15
Okay, what about Rutherford hope?

Unknown Speaker 58:17
He went there first, I think on delay deconflict. Right. And then he went to pander?

Unknown Speaker 58:28
Did he just Yeah, I was a little surprised to see him on Main. So he did he live first on Main. Okay, so he did actually live there, I

Unknown Speaker 58:36
think hope they have named after him. Okay.

Unknown Speaker 58:38
And then what about John Wick? John

Unknown Speaker 58:43
was the lighthouse keeper. The first lighthouse keeper at the Turner I think. And then he went on to the light ship and he died on the right ship in the Fraser River. That's the light ship base station, the light ship at the mouth of the Fraser River. They had they had to have light for navigation. And so it was a ship that was stationed there. Or they have been working with.

Unknown Speaker 59:15
Okay, because he was one of the early owners of that property. To what have you do you know anything about James and Matilda Dolly?

Unknown Speaker 59:24
They jolly was the captain of the Lightship. Oh, really? Yeah. And Nicholson, Alex Nicholson. You've got him. He was. I've got his a lot of stuff on him a bit. He was a gold miner in Australia and in NBC. And he's supposed to have been, and then he settled there. Early on, and he left the property to the jollies. Oh, did he? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 59:55
Yeah, because you're here. Okay. And Do you know anything else about them? Like, where they were from or

Unknown Speaker 1:00:04
the trolleys? No, I really wanted to check them out. But he was I believe he was the captain of the relationship.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:12
Okay, and do you know where they went?

Unknown Speaker 1:00:16
Oh, yeah, no, I know. One of the reasons like they supplied butter and stuff to the Lightship through so they may have gotten to know one another that way. I have no idea why he left the property to them.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:30
And James Campbell, and

Unknown Speaker 1:00:32
Campbell was a relative of the bandit, but I don't know anything about him from Ireland to the Irish, Northern Irish.

Unknown Speaker 1:00:42
Okay. Do you have anything else that you'd like to say about about me in Ireland? Any anything at all that you'd like to know? If you often fond

Unknown Speaker 1:00:53
of it? I think it's a wonderful island. I think it it. Probably overdeveloped now I wish it would to stop. There's still a few there's still more people that can move on to the island and I'm just hoping the water supply and the water and septic tanks and all that sort of thing

Unknown Speaker 1:01:23
will hold up. What have they said a number like based on

Unknown Speaker 1:01:27
the violent draft have have come up with a number to know what it is. Um, I don't know. They I can't remember though. I think it may be around 3000. But I'm not sure. It seems awfully high.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:43
But yeah. Okay, so thank you very much.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:48
You're welcome.