Salt Spring Island Archives
| Accession Number | 8|||
| Date | 2015 | ||
| Media | digital recording | Audio | mp3 √ |
| duration | 82 |
338_Ivan-Mouat_Ruth-Sandwell_2003.mp3
otter.ai
12.02.2024
no
Outline
Speaker 1 0:08
And you know you never let anybody know that you sold them that just like I sold some people told the guy that right yeah,
Unknown Speaker 0:19
dear. Well anyway so we
Unknown Speaker 0:27
I got loose. Dr. Dietrich loose islands trust
Speaker 1 0:41
no no capital Regional District praise your name to the trust
Unknown Speaker 0:51
well what about your family but
Speaker 1 0:54
well my grandfather and grandmother came here over 110 years ago, February of 1885. This time, they had a family of my grandfather be married before and Shetland and his wife had died. And they had a son about that time this young Tom was born. So before, he was about 11 years old, and he came here. And my father was just a baby in arms. He was born at four. But he was born down in Spokane, because they, I had an uncle there, your great uncle brother, who Gavin called him. And he posed by real estate. He made quite a bit of money in Spokane. And he always had to look after our family because what was it 513 years after he came here, my grandfather died and left the family of 10 children. There was also an older Sadat had an older sister and she was she was born at 432. And he was born at four and then my uncle Gilbert was born at six. And there was quite a family.
Unknown Speaker 2:14
So there was a family of 10.
Unknown Speaker 2:17
Benny survived just well that means quite a few days, to my uncles. And, like see, oldest girl died that was and then 99 My uncle Jerry died
Speaker 2 2:31
and might be well, they were he was a teenager.
Speaker 1 2:35
19 year old and then 1913 Monk glory died.
Unknown Speaker 2:40
So how many actually survived?
Speaker 1 2:44
Uncle Tom, my father, uncle Colbert and Uncle Gavin, four boys and had Mary and Vidya and then Jesse three girls to survive that they actually have a very tragic 30s But there were she did produce a family. So I think when it comes to 3030 something,
Unknown Speaker 3:04
I'm going to ask him because
Unknown Speaker 3:07
30 and now Tom,
Speaker 1 3:09
can I be comes from Tom Toynbee is the child the youngest child of my dad's younger sister to survive. There was a sister guidance the after my grandfather born after my grandfather died when she was born after he died, and she just survived three months. But at Jessie Mrs. Toynbee was the youngest one of the family of that generation, my father's generation and she married Dick Toynbee. 24 I guess Tom was young was one of our family whose Dick Manson and Tom
Unknown Speaker 3:52
Van Jesse, their mother was my.
Unknown Speaker 3:56
So there was Jesse, Jesse. A couple of years. Yeah, just to cover for
Speaker 1 4:03
96 and she died in 94 and 98 years old. He's the oldest one my dad was 91 that he died. And that Mary was 9786 87. It didn't Well, I figured that maybe 16 years left. That'll bring me to 91
Unknown Speaker 4:32
Well, I was gonna ask you how many cousins?
Speaker 1 4:35
How many are in the island? No. Well, let's see the all of North. You know, maybe you've heard of all she's very active. It has been she's at best. She's 1990 1099 Because he's Laurie born 19. He was born in Tennessee. She's well into her 80s but she's very, she's a teacher and bench because she taught in the island. And she's always been doing good deeds. She has a church and she's delivered us Meals on Wheels and IOD. She has all sorts of things like that. Also, you'd find that she was doing a lot of things the buyer paid for people needed something done. Anyway, she lives in the island and her younger sister Robina lives in your house. Now she's widowed twice, and she doesn't know. Then the my cousin came to the next one. I'm the only one of my family right now. Two brothers and one sister, your disease. And now your father's name is William Wm. Molad. He was in he was active him when he's 49 years in the hospital board. thing. It's 20 years in the snow for two years as treasurer of the United Church, and all his life in
Unknown Speaker 6:04
the Liberal Party.
Speaker 1 6:07
And he wants to He was active in the provincial and the federal rules were all there was given to him by a former champion in George S Garrison, who used to be an idol when we were in the novel, after I think Dad had managed his campaign for five consecutive elections had been his agent organized. So he knew that he was very active Liberal Party, but he was also very accurate acuity. I was reading through some things in the salt Gulf Islands Board of Trade. He was treasurer or Secretary, I guess, Secretary Treasurer. Was there any way the secretary treasurer of that in the first term? You know, he was in the department he thinks he was one of I think that the island Secretary of company, half of organizations and seemed because he was Secretary of the hospital board. was a great sportsman. Yes. In golfer. Yes. And they were great hunter, he loves to hunt. So he would
Speaker 3 7:11
you like to span of time that? Would you say this is how he
Speaker 1 7:15
was he was born? 84 He even the way he had to work on the farm, you see, and while everybody was required to try and get things together, and then the 9999 I think there was when you were 23. With help from Uncle Gavin. I think some helpful we haven't he went to Columbia College for New Westminster, which is poor runner University. Yeah. Well and joined but it was he was going to study lives going from all and he was getting like you just finished grade eight. That's all we had. We went over there for. And then in 1907 My uncle Gilbert had been working for a company who had had been in general merchants for a little while on the island, Malcolm and Purvis. They started up at Central, and then they moved down the Ganges in 1904. The 1907 Uncle Kilburn bought the company, at least my grandmother and Uncle Gilbert bought the company and became TJ mountain company. And then they wanted some there was some more funding was required. And so I think as the approach don't gather, and he said, would a video come in, who have the money. So that came into business about half, he bought about half a business, so at least a third of it, he and his mother and others often have the same value for $2,000.99. Then he was married in 1913. And by that time, he paid back $1,000. And Uncle Gavin forgave him the other 1000. So anyway, now in 1913 1913, at that time, he's on the hot he was says when the hospital board was formed, he's at the hospital board, then he'd been acting the liberal party before that.
Speaker 4 8:59
All right now when when they formed GM boards, the basis for modern
Speaker 1 9:04
trade was trading that was begun in 1907 1907. And did they erect that building? No, no, that was built in 1912 is open September 1912. And I know that for a fact, because I've got the letters. Dad written to me and Jesse Mrs. Toynbee that closing some money that was sent along to Mongo great uncle Gavin. And they can't have more to do no more time to right now, because we're moving into new building. That was 19. And that was the same year the Trading Company was built
Speaker 3 9:39
with a trading company over on the and they own both of those. No, no. It's owned by somebody that
Speaker 1 9:47
was run by conservatives and churches. And the others were liberals and Methodist. Great difference, right? All of the managers that aren't good manager Solid Harris and email the governor light ball friends really didn't make a difference to them but we were a lot better business people I mean we had a lot more I mean we owned a company in LA Mr. Harris is just the manager manager
Unknown Speaker 10:14
representative
Speaker 2 10:21
often on purpose store on the point which is where Glads ice cream is about yeah
Unknown Speaker 10:25
just about there Yeah.
Speaker 2 10:28
And then there are a few years later and knowing that this was built and then granny kept this as if it was her family home and she also ran it as a sort of a cup of coffee with a body
Speaker 3 10:44
so this is a this was the actual tree No no no
Speaker 2 10:51
that Uncle Gilbert thought oh, I said he ran that he had grandmother had that store at the post office their post office and then this building was occupied and it was still there.
Speaker 1 11:04
readies boarding houses Oh granny. It was it was later on when other people started to open and my grandmother died in 35 Here it is was a big
Speaker 2 11:12
stairs there the front steps in the early days either late well a month it
Speaker 1 11:18
was after 1909 Because that's in the picture. Okay, and they've got it in the store is 1907 which is wrong because dad wasn't in the business domain.
Speaker 2 11:26
So here you see that turn those stairs away but the the porch is still there is
Speaker 1 11:33
no GJ moto g j mod Gilbert James Martin Company. And Motor Company has been able to use this for two years like that. And then it became more brothers limited. And then 90 led me bought brothers are multiples and company multiples and Company Limited 1911. And then much later, I think was in the 30s it was changeable brothers limited. And company was left out of print. And you'll see at some signs up and I've got to check in because when that was done, because you'll see some signs and old pictures rather than sign up. But it's limited only notice after a certain date and 30s when the change was made.
Unknown Speaker 12:12
For all that period of time
Speaker 1 12:13
in fluid, the prime followed by Uncle Gilbert was the manager and president of the company. And in 1914, he was stricken with polio. He had a terrible time bad thing that is mine as well. And he came back to work in a wheelchair. And I never knew except in a wheelchair. Really Yeah. And I used to I used to drive minutes to 35 va his pick the VA up and pick them up at home, but 10 o'clock, that is in the summertime, you know, that was my job to get up or down. That always taking up the camp. So the point which he called it, we always called the camp, which he developed a sort of therapy animal. But he's a wonderful man. But he ran the business my father was looked after money. My father did the empathic counseling. And then the community was most mothers good mom, brothers limited in the community dad was able to act very active in the community. Oh, whoever was acting the liberal organization, but just behind the scenes, he was very into his life on purpose. And then for a while our younger uncle for Gavin was much younger. He joined the company, he was vice president company. And then he had an unfortunate marriage and the dissolved and he left the company and he went live in the States married again and then came back the island that was very successful businesses music business, long cooking and started dog broking, selling lawns and he was all we used to do that earlier then Gavin to it over and Saltspring lands in Salzburg land and development company that was formed in 1928. With my family, my father, uncle Gavin DS Harris manager of the trading company and Mr. Inglis arthritis and arguing was became the office man that man paid very small the rest of us chairman of this company. Then I forgot about that company kicked me out after the war 4647 will be completely and it was real and developing. He developed saw the point Carly's to sunset drive. He bought power to the island in 1936 37. About the convinced the heavy circulated that's the good. He was that the Lord very interested in the opinion. He bought out Ganti waterbar company which have been running the water Water District and he bought that from the water district. And he was a great he also Oh until I started the very start with the the problem theory, even though he started out with first he bought
Unknown Speaker 15:08
so I mean it was a private Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 15:12
The other one, and then he couldn't then he was too ill to he wouldn't have sold it yet but he was counted only 61. Politics. He did just before that he sold the company of both companies to the BC government. He was a very good friend of all WAC Bennett who is our premier football. He were
Speaker 3 15:33
super long did he? Did you say y'all need a temporary? Yes, he started to he bought the you know,
Unknown Speaker 15:42
on the first one in 1930. Yeah,
Speaker 1 15:44
that's a massive, massive loser Victoria businessman and he had the event growl coachlines. And so he started that just got you know, to just kind of going before the crash, I guess was all planned. And that started 1930 Fulford Swartz Bay, and Uncle Gavin started this one in 55. He bought that the other one in the 50s. He bought the footprint theory towards corporate towards a at about 50. I can tell you exactly but early 50s 5455 on the 5233 and then decided this one was needed. And still he got violent with us. So the 9025 and
Unknown Speaker 16:21
these are the Forerunners to the BC theory. BC
Speaker 1 16:24
Ferries company bought them. When did they come in 61 They've all the ferries are going between sports bands and then covered. Yeah, yeah, he started the fairies, but they're going through there as well. Awesome.
Speaker 3 16:38
So they're, they're advertising it. They're celebrating their 35th year? That's
Speaker 1 16:42
right. The 60. Yeah, and then he bought they bought these very they were already organized very company when they bought these two.
Speaker 2 16:50
That was very good. Very service with the Canadian Pacific here
Unknown Speaker 16:55
for years. Oh, yes.
Speaker 2 16:57
You've seen that book of Dec. 27. Two. Anyway.
Speaker 1 17:03
I used to be, the boat would leave the ship. The princess Mariam equivalent earlier was here a claw ride on princess but used to be that cover. And when I was growing up as a boy to sleep, then cover Monday, come over here and it stopped all the islands of the way, bring the queen for the crib for the primary. And then it go down to Victoria. And on the way back is thought. com talking First, pick up the empty Creek camps and take them back to the items and going back to Vancouver. We then went up the coast up to the Union Bay I think on Wednesday, we saw it again Thursday, here to Vancouver to Seattle back in Friday. We didn't see it. Saturday to me came over. And in the summertime we had a summer in the mid 30s. But that was I think it was good cars. If they couldn't do the tide was wrong to put underneath and figure out the tide. You know, they'd have to dry them off. And the tide was too low and couldn't get them off. Then they put them on the deck. Lift the rate up from the neck. But driver of the deck. No, no, no, no, those are picked up again by Derek. They had the you know they up in the front. They had a couple three or four times anyway. And they leave food for anything that happened in the hole and never had that but that's what it's for. And his car would sit there and they just did right up. Oh yeah.
Speaker 3 18:23
So how long did these two theories run for the BC? Oh, they
Unknown Speaker 18:27
were running up read earlier and that they were
Unknown Speaker 18:33
they've always been here if I was
Speaker 1 18:36
wanting to know more about that than I do. But they're always Salisbury was always unhappy. The other islands are always unhappy about transportation because they couldn't get the goods to market market but that's true.
Speaker 2 18:48
And there's a Princess Victoria and the princess going to Beaver point. Well, beaver point work was active when I first came here. Well, they
Unknown Speaker 18:56
mentioned beaver point, Uri.
Speaker 2 19:00
And there's the princess Nora. Now she's at that time she's in a wartime color. She painted three she was one of the charmer was I got on the Nora was a Mary and I could go up diploma. That was after married. Yeah. See there's two ships and again she's worth there. The princess Patricia in the Princess Royal American 3030.
Unknown Speaker 19:25
Car Yeah, but
Speaker 1 19:25
then you just see. That's how some of the stuff used to be on our farm and the night early before 1900 When my father was a young man working on the farm, then he would sometimes take stuff over to roll it over to crop walk up the West home and take it up or send it up to storage up there and Namsom store which is mother's cousin store, personally as mother's cousins are nasty. They had a storage project so badly by the train or sometimes they take it and also lots of times. I mean I've hung on Thursday. I just got a hold of the other day and how they were thought of time spent by members of our family on an island. Because my grandmother's parents were undeniable they came out what 1890 After she came out because she was here and they had cousins at the time. And so they set foot at night and always her family's up there. So I mean, some of my cousins were born for the hospital. Laurie was born.
Speaker 2 20:29
But even after we were married, the I'm from Vancouver Island. And if we wanted to go to Vancouver, I would take a fish boat or a little charter boat Mr. Evans is trying to try to vote often and then I would wait for items there that cropped up he took the car for full purchase towards me go around and now but that was the only way you could do it. Unless I went all the way by boat which and then I had to overnight on the boat
Speaker 1 20:59
sometimes go back to Duncan got the train though. Did you
Speaker 2 21:03
know you had to have some way to get from often to the train or the bus or whatever.
Unknown Speaker 21:15
50 years next year debonair young challenges
Unknown Speaker 21:28
is that the truth here?
Speaker 1 21:35
So there's a hospital. Oh, yeah. Hospital 2013 I think part two.
Speaker 3 21:41
Do you know when when you taught you go up to years 61. I met Tom join in them and the one that actually that we we
Speaker 1 21:52
train that was 6869. That's when that was formed. Well, most Trading Company was formed, you see molded by this limited mode but is limited when liquidation or they're called liquidation in 1969 69. Yeah. And they gradually bought us out over the over the years. Yeah, that's what my father was a big shareholder, my cousins, maca, Laurie, where they were in the business Hall at ISE. Then they were making shareholders and all members. I have some. My brother had some. They all have some Uncle Tom had cylinders. But Matt dad and Laurie Mack moving shareholders and they were bought out in 69. My father,
Unknown Speaker 22:35
and Laurie and macro children have their
Unknown Speaker 22:38
name worked in the business all their life. Well, Matt and Laurie did the Mac was way during
Speaker 1 22:46
the 1969. Yes. That's when lots Training Company was formed and took over all the assets that had been on the only thing the only land we own was where the credit union used to be, you know, what it used to be where that building? What's the name of the arts? Stone? Stone and as we all know, there's a lot there. But then Coinbase invented but Salzburg a trading company. Yes. And they bought the Mr. Turner store where we met. Yes.
Speaker 5 23:23
Go into new cabinets. And the tide six
Speaker 1 23:30
times in and then they brought Mrs. tarnish door. Which face it's all it's called. But it's sort of the parking lot. Or it used to be yes. Okay. That's they bought that. And that they start to develop it. Well, they're able to as a core area. Yeah, of course. And then they're locked, and they filled it with a Centennial Park is or 1967 68. And they got to that bar that
Speaker 2 24:02
were gasoline alley, and that was starting to get killed in the
Unknown Speaker 24:08
blacksmith shop. You see when I was growing up.
Speaker 3 24:12
That's that's owned by some somebody. I'll make a comment saying that that property and then the race point that's owned by other? That's
Speaker 1 24:25
right. Yeah, we used to own point to say we used to own the point. But then it was sold
Unknown Speaker 24:33
to care, you know,
Speaker 1 24:34
sold for a long period. I had some of that before we sold the business. But it was sold to her agency holding on. That's Charlie Parr. horrorland pregnenolone and they owned it because that's how the point these by selling that. They managed to get some more No money was coming in as a part of the the point. Point was not because the point we own the point for years was used to be logging trucks up there that logs ties is loaded from there. There was always a couple of houses up there and it was late later on the period oil the barrels up there we and then we sold property please We won't let his did not last trading. The board needs to own it taking the barrels there. Anybody on the market? That piece of doorman came into it? Yes. So because Norman UCS is one of the wealthiest Madrid's
Speaker 1 25:46
he had his own father uncle Gavin my great uncle Yeah, but we haven't and he did very well matrices left a lot of ways and normally look after things very carefully too far and subdivided so it was a rather long was printable God printable that's from Harlem pregnancy, and they bought over the trading of the they operated these Saltspring lands. And but the normal way to do it, then several other business people around and people around you can see their name right here.
Unknown Speaker 26:25
It normally isn't going to Barbara. Barbara
Unknown Speaker 26:28
did environmental
Unknown Speaker 26:32
was four directors.
Speaker 1 26:35
Give me a dude, he was manager for a while the left. John.
Speaker 3 26:39
Clue. And we used David Smith. Plus normally, yes. It's about the directors. Their mother was was Jessie married Richard Richard.
Speaker 1 26:56
And he came from Ohio. Well, yes. Well, he'd been here for the war. The 20s and adopting the cranberry there quite a family there. But they get Dick telling stories about the family so close. They all get together and they one of the mom was married. And they did they wouldn't do anything around the house except arguing about politics with exactly this. But they were wonderful family and Dick and Charlie. They all as a couple of us want to become with all Thomas. Tonto. It was a tremendous day he lived on the island before the war now collecting back here.
Speaker 3 27:33
Yes, I really don't think he was he
Speaker 1 27:37
was in he was awesome. He was a machinist. And he was grabbed out of the army or they will never join advertising and they feel shells are turned the motion machines. I mean, that was their very early and only that's what its business trade was and use film as someone who breaks down a fire when they come in and get into makeup. This
Speaker 3 27:55
is Tom's Tom's father Richard Toynbee. Yeah, he wasn't interested in. Well,
Unknown Speaker 28:00
no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, he
Unknown Speaker 28:02
was a machinist.
Speaker 1 28:03
He was a machinist. That's right. And actually the distant relatives are bound by their story, you know, the British historian.
Speaker 3 28:16
And so then you you say that the moments came from Shetland?
Speaker 1 28:19
That's right. To to Washington to know they came first of all to to Spokane, they visited Toronto and because they had cousins or relatives, relatives there. And then they came to Spokane because a great uncle Catlett Gavin coffin in the ground about the fairies but his uncle, my great uncle. He was living in Spokane, so they came to him and first of all,
Speaker 2 28:45
there was no railway across. That's right. They had to come and see this. Otherwise, they would have probably gone straight to the 985
Speaker 1 28:53
years. Before Yeah, yeah, they came. They came here in 84. Yeah, that was born in Spokane and August 84. So they were on their way in 83 or 84. Then they
Speaker 2 29:07
waved to him and that his mother hasn't managed to get him to be born in Canada. Yeah, dad was
Speaker 1 29:12
very upset. But he was managed to be Africa's. I think after his seventh birthday, they they let it be a native son of British Columbia. Not everyone but on the native side. That was quite an organization they had the native sons of British Columbia BC native sons. I worked as a child and young man, a young boy used to have lots of fun work in the feed shed and that ever is the truck drivers coming
Unknown Speaker 29:35
down over the
Unknown Speaker 29:36
farm. sorting
Unknown Speaker 29:37
out the groceries. Like we used to deliver all
Unknown Speaker 29:40
over the groceries.
Speaker 1 29:43
Oh yes. Who knows? The people folding orders. Oh yes. Holding from Fulford or beaver point or something. We take the feed from the girl she's out. Gather the eggs. We used to have cattle Now that you know Katelyn grade the grade the eggs in the feature grade were about where the scales are and then you know just the entrance of volume two I would think that's the answer but the entrance of the art gallery Pegasus art gallery that's where the counting ship is counted and the room because we end up handling Okay, I'm sorry, you took the eggs and it tells you the cracks are bloodshot or anything like that. And then we send them to Vancouver. We ship them to the the blood shops in the cracks we tend to forget so shall your sports bakery we bought our bread from
Unknown Speaker 30:44
the store and was it a Was it
Speaker 1 30:47
anything anything you want by any hardware store Model T cars numbers?
Speaker 2 30:52
No when I first came out mean anything they get to know the cost?
Speaker 1 30:59
Yes, you used to be able to get a funeral and sold something for $35 in the 30s Yeah, well we didn't we didn't keep the money we just dispersed it like the minister got maybe 758 of
Unknown Speaker 31:12
you is your Undertaker one
Speaker 1 31:14
of the truck drivers he got he got so much one of our guys he would walk the hospital lay them out Allen carton in the hospital lay them out on the market at any point to figure you and we'll see and he whenever the lumber would come in the lumber would come in from China so sometimes pull up great five or the association used to be the gasoline or the Marine Station Red Bull walk there and when they could see your was on od took all fear cedar to buy you're gonna ship that for you I guess I'll tell you he built a car from the drove the truck he got some
Speaker 2 31:51
money but by the time I came they were buying their confidence.
Speaker 1 31:56
They were the while they were true. They understood Hey, we're doing them yeah, we store the payments just because we want to go we didn't like the business that
Unknown Speaker 32:05
they had it was just because nobody else least saved if anybody ever got flowers
Speaker 1 32:15
No, no, no, no. We didn't have anybody. I mean it because we didn't take it you didn't take money from that everybody got a little bit
Unknown Speaker 32:32
bigger in your hospital here. Our short team
Unknown Speaker 32:40
got probably 10 Was
Speaker 5 32:41
that then the graveyard over by the community hall at Central now. That's right, that but also this one just anchored in Protestant or Catholic or anything.
Speaker 1 32:54
Church doesn't matter. Have you had buried
Speaker 5 32:59
that that there's two or three plots of ground and do another one? That's right. Yeah,
Speaker 3 33:03
you are the Herods Saltspring because parents in England you know they take care of you from birth of a baby department. We
Speaker 1 33:11
sold Ford cars and had a Ford agency for well for making 13 to 19 something for we were Imperial oil agents for a great number of years. We were agents for a we used to buy feed from Buffalo Bills because their agents know those days you see the great thing about business in the 30s right up to the end of the war. But what's the 90 days credit I mean we our credit was just solid. I mean Dun and Bradstreet we got to talk because Father made sure that they used to say you know we're not so bad. And then we had 90 day credit with our suppliers which was kind of nice money and for the eggs money and for the fruit of they sell it to us. They did a lot of did a lot it was holding themselves and that's alright. That you'd be able to bring in the eggs bringing them and then logging for instance another thing uncle Gilbert did a lot for before uncle Gavin took it over the mountains that were dying to 46 but just to say you know more I do want to get a few logging in a small way. For financial financing you was meaning you've got three people working for you. When the EU came and said okay, they will go so much your bill was paid and they got the balance on cash. And you got you got your once you log to state or once your logs are paid, you got the whole settlement all lined up for you. But until the logs are paid, nobody got any money. We didn't get any money for our groceries. You never got money for involved. But that's why and that's been on and then the real for the Great. Quite a successful blogger, Joe Lachlan, who's a very good friend of our village and he needs Haven't looked after his business. But there were some successful lawyers were the one that was very successful to other South End. Homes. He never wouldn't talk to us at all. He had his own arrange with the banks, and he was able to do this. But more on the whole, we handed it off. Well, logs are very nice.
Unknown Speaker 35:14
There's a lot of logs. Logs Well,
Speaker 1 35:18
once you get so much, as I told her weigh in on scalar balance. And that's what gave us our time, not enough time to pay for your groceries and pay for your oil and paint dust from your feet.
Speaker 5 35:32
So you ran a financing operation as well. Yes. Bank here, no bank, no bank here.
Unknown Speaker 35:39
There was a bank in 1913. And when it was
Speaker 3 35:42
gone during the First World War, all right, when the first bank gets established, well,
Speaker 1 35:47
the first bank came to merge the Bank of Canada. And it was where it started with REMAX REMAX. Well, they had that they built that building with
Unknown Speaker 35:54
the bank. That bank is 1990 12
Speaker 1 35:56
No, they came in 13. They didn't Lastly, clearly. See, there's a great lot of prosperity around the 90s was there? Well, yes, it was fantastic. Because the all the property were McPhillips Avenue Jackson, that was subdivided, and excuse me just remember.
Unknown Speaker 37:25
As far as I'm concerned.
Speaker 3 37:48
Let you think about how this island has developed over here. If you've been here 29 years. Yeah. So that was
Speaker 6 38:01
that and we came from San Francisco 22 years in San Francisco, previous to that in New York. So my old background in planning and architecture started when I was very young. And I was as with most youngsters, sort of shoved around during the war years, and then came back to New York and then was horrified to see the changes that took place there and the quality of life because being brought up in New York was a big city and it was crowded, but it was a fun place to live. And it was safe. And he wrote all over miles on the subway for Nico. And we went I went to school there. And so I saw on New York during the it's what I would call it hay day, as far as the past generations. And then in the post war period, it cut to be rude and difficult, or a little crowded, awful traffic. So we moved to San Francisco, there in what I consider to be the San Francisco hay day in the late 40s. Right after the war. And then we watched that, and we actually lived in Tiburon, Oakland, actually, all of that land, get highly developed in San Francisco go from a sort of Prudential city to a really big crowd. So every 20 years it hits
Unknown Speaker 39:41
you make the transition? Yeah.
Speaker 6 39:43
So from that point of view, I'm very biased in that. When we arrived here in 67. You didn't need a building permit. You just got a shovel and a two by four and went out and built the bale. The builders that were here were very Nice Guys, but they were basically all very unsophisticated. Practically no control except the electrical department that even that was very cool. I'm saying really is the place was free and it's no longer free.
Unknown Speaker 40:23
Yeah, you didn't know. Now,
Speaker 6 40:26
that transition, right is, as far as I'm concerned is a matter of right and wrong, it's a matter of scale. I prefer to live a more free life less, hemmed in with bureaucratic schemes of all kinds control to Okay, I have mixed feelings, because I like to see the planning and aesthetic controls that are, are being attempted. On the other hand, I also appreciate people going off in the woods and doing what they want to do is going to hurt anybody else and not being so that there's a paradox there. That concerns me
Unknown Speaker 41:08
with this OCPD. And then the what there was a
Speaker 6 41:15
there was no car dude with no islands trust, there was nothing. This was an unincorporated area. And as a matter of fact, when I arrived, I was so caught because of the previous experience in both sandwiches going to New York, I was so concerned about what would happen to these islands. And to this whole area, knowing full well what development would take place in Victoria Vancouver, Scioli in me. And the inevitable consequence would be a tremendous amount of development. So I undertook with a few other people with first planning efforts on the arm Jack Russell was one. He was on the original advisory planning commission or committee that we started he was with Adrian wealth Milner. surveyor, yes. Adrienne and I and three, four others. And some interesting people came out of a meeting of the den chamber of commerce with a planning committee and started the whole development. Then the CRD eventually was formed, took it over it, it started at the time when there was a very large scale noise and unpleasant development, which you may know about over magic lakes estate over tender side.
Speaker 3 42:44
I remember hearing about it. Yeah, it was sort of what Matt without restrictions,
Unknown Speaker 42:52
proper suit, and it ruined delay. Yeah.
Speaker 3 42:54
And and so that's when the CRD was formed.
Speaker 6 42:58
Yeah, that's when the provincial government actually put a, what they call the 10 acre, SATs rod to community plans were developed. And that's what engendered this whole planning process. I
Speaker 3 43:11
think Jack Russell was was frustrated with by the 10 acre phrase, because here he had eight and 10 America sitting on and wanting to develop them and couldn't do that. And he was totally frustrated. How did you find out how originally,
Speaker 6 43:31
I had done a house for a young designer in Sausalito, and in 1952, and he liked the house very much. And he called me up in 1966, and said, Would you be interested in designing a house for me? In Canada, and I said, Well, if you send me up, I have to look at the land, of course. And I be very interested because Maggie and I had already talked about moving out of San Francisco and doing something different. And so I came up for about three, four days, saw the island and that was I got that.
Speaker 3 44:15
Well, so you had to get your license and everything. Yeah, take your boards or whatever. We were saying.
Speaker 6 44:25
Yeah, we we did become Canadians as soon as we were able to, or we decided we took our kids out of school and I gave up my practice and we sold our house. We just move lock stock and barrel Saltspring and at that time, we bought three pieces of property. This was more than one our houses and it was very reasonable. Everybody here thought we paid much too much for it and we bought including the house we bought seven acres for $22,000 Everybody thought we were able to make the move and it was pretty thin. There was no architect on the first time. I'm
Speaker 3 45:11
sure. Well, when you said that, that you were instrumental in was this for Ganges?
Speaker 6 45:18
No, no, this is for the island for the holiday was taking the position that everything here should be the island. The island? Yes. Okay. At that time that were very, very strong feelings as between Fulford and Ganges.
Speaker 3 45:33
I heard the rustling award. Oh, yeah. But
Speaker 6 45:36
we did everything to mitigate that. And there were a lot of corporate people on the committee and so on so as to make sure that it was a very broad committee of all kinds of people. As a matter of fact, it was amazingly so. And the Republic at that point, a representative.
Speaker 3 45:56
So now, from that, to now. Oh, I'm
Speaker 6 46:00
very sorry about what's happening, aren't you? Oh, very sorry, did
Unknown Speaker 46:05
you expect this? Yeah, you expected it? Well, I
Speaker 6 46:08
knew that any place is lovely is this. And as close to Victoria, Vancouver, Seattle, someone inevitably would become very attracted to Arjuna. And that whole question of scale, and I think, as radical as it was, and very much hated by some people. There was a proposal to have all of the violence in the San Juan Islands, in a sort of national park international car, which would have been a very interesting thing in terms of preserving, truly preserving the natural people allowed to live here and to work here. It has been done very successfully point raised. And of course, now, civilization goes on in spite of the fact that it avoids what really is to the worst problem, which is the cutting up with the land for, for profit. And, and, of course, as an architect, and having done a lot of houses, over 100 Part of the problem, but I've tried to do it as gently and as nicely as I can. And however, if anybody had said to me anywhere along the line, this place is so good. That we don't want to develop it. And you'll have to make your living some other way or move off the island. I would have gone on with that. I mean, I respect the islands. To that extent, it's very unusual. And the extent that they've done that
Speaker 3 47:57
study. And as lovely as it is, I just felt it wasn't it didn't have much individual.
Speaker 6 48:06
I think if my answer generally, and my feelings are very strong that if a place would be allowed to grow organically, in other words, that they weren't a matter of somebody coming in and doing large scale subdivision of land if people could move in and find a job, and maybe do small scale logging, maybe doing small scale cards, and three. And that's the beautiful thing about all the villages in the small towns all over Europe, with long period of time. And a manner which I consider to be organic, in other words, that the people's livelihood was from the land itself, and the towns were built for their protection. But there wasn't this tremendous push to bring people in in order to sell more land and develop more land. That's what been, to me the most disturbing has happened all over in France, not to I mean, the Mediterranean coast is a disaster in Spain and Portugal. It's me men have a way of sort of just following their nest. And and to some extent that's been done here, although I must say, you know, I acknowledged the fact that with the trust, and with the planning controls and efforts made to keep things reasonable, that the overall result is very pleasant. I mean, much better than most. But it's getting so choked up with cars. The cars are the worst. In Ghana, yeah, that's roads themselves everything the number of driveways and mailboxes anymore, but the channel the amount of time to As you get more crowded with more conflict between people, like you're on each other's doorstep, and they use each other's water, and then you have to devise means to protect. So they don't trade,
Speaker 3 50:11
Seattle and Vancouver, I've often said to my husband, we live in San Diego, my gosh, if these three would be totally developed
Speaker 6 50:21
now, but that's only a matter of time until I
Speaker 3 50:25
hear. Yes. Well, that's that's what I feel, too. And do you have any? Any any thoughts on how that can?
Speaker 6 50:35
Really, I think the only way it could be done is absolutely undemocratic and absolutely unacceptable politically, and that is to just literally declared let people live here, work here. And, and just terminate with an iron fist, as you would say. Otherwise, it's going to be utterly suburbanized. More and more people mean more and more traffic, and more and more ferries and more commuting. And it will no longer be a rural community. I think even now, it's something of a joke to call it a rural community into suburban really? Well, it is because so many of the services are so dependent on the cities that have surrendered to happen with the portrait very Yes. I mean, that's an example we used to be down to the eight o'clock ferry or the 930 ferry and six cars on and we'd know everybody on the ferry. And that scale thing is just completely changed.
Speaker 3 51:43
And if they if they do, we will go on harbor ferry Beaufort trying to become a well
Speaker 6 51:48
the general areas. The general tendency is what I call implosion. In other words, what they do is concentrate cars concentrate ferries, and
Speaker 3 52:01
it's just I don't think they thought out the traffic that the full for Ganges roads will have, if they have this hearing, they just build me.
Speaker 6 52:13
Oh, sure, if they need to have this, I've seen it or know that to know. Although the actual design and supervision of the roads to ministry highways.
Unknown Speaker 52:29
That's what I was for ministry of higher.
Speaker 6 52:32
But that'll that's been a very unfortunate thing. CRD for instance, government sewers, and the island trust never in spite of the fact that they're in charge of land use and land use planning. Never had any input into the whole slew of questions never. And politically, I guess they didn't dare I don't know. My business, but I have very strong feelings about this diffusion of responsibility. So that you have since we have no municipality, then you have planning is in one little pigeonhole, and sewers and certain other health controls are in another. And subdivision approvals and planning of subdivisions is in another. That's the Ministry of Finance. There are moves afoot now to concentrate these things with greater extent and also a real move toward the municipality, which I think ultimately is.
Speaker 3 53:35
Well, I understand a lot of people are talking about that would not get you rid of the islands trust you would still
Speaker 6 53:45
as well, I don't want to get rid of the Well, yeah. Okay. From
Speaker 3 53:50
what I understand that if if Saltspring becomes a municipality, that the taxes will go up, and but it won't have our own government so to speak, but we still have to answer to the islands tribes. Yes.
Speaker 6 54:02
Because their mandate is controllable. Yeah.
Speaker 3 54:08
And in reading a little bit of history, yeah. About 100 years ago, it was proposed that salt spray can be become a municipality and the idea was was dropped. Yeah. So but I understand that taxes will go up because you have to pay for for this kind of government but you might you might have more satisfaction you might feel that erratically we do with the trustees, but we have your own government now that works. Body in Victoria telling you what and what not to do. I think this is the reaction right now provide primarily people off the island and and that they really haven't been given the input from from islanders or focus committee. So function I guess But evidently their ideas have not always been.
Speaker 6 55:05
I think the real mistakes or tragedies that occurred is that when the trust was first formed, it was an all party committee that formed the trust. First party. Yeah, it wasn't just NDP, it was liberal and conservative. All the members of that forming committee, it was appointed by the governor was a very thoughtful and energetic and very, I think, strong ideas. What one of the things that was bandied about, and I think was very seriously a part of the original trust formation was that in order to protect the islands, they would have effects on veto power over ferries, and large scale pollution, in other words, that that they would recommend to the provincial government, the kinds of strategies and controls that would preserve and protect the islands, you can't prevent traffic. If you're a planner, of traffic, and transportation is a huge part of it, you can't do anything with it unless you're in position to control the input traffic. And on the island, you had the great advantage that if you control fairings, you never exercise that power. In other words, they said the provincial government, we want to preserve and protect the islands. And in order to do that, you have to have a large, large, long, forward looking growth strategy that will manage ferries that will help to manage population, if you make it more difficult for people to travel. And you first of all, you begin to develop more organic development. That's what I mean.
Speaker 3 57:01
And the super fairies coming up. So that would be one way. I wonder too about or maybe water isn't the problem, the amount of water.
Speaker 6 57:15
But I think that, that what lies at the root of it really is, is the long term strategy. And strategies and goals are the provincial government, which A is in favor of development, in favor of jobs in favor of financial growth of increasing GDP. And as long as you have a government that takes that position, in relation to the natural resources, and all of the policies are going to flow from that strategies, so I've got lots of opinions. But I think that there's that the failures of trust they are critical of it, is that they have not exercised the kind of control over those developments sufficiently to assure quality. Control. Even it's been useful, I was very much involved in the development of channel rich, for example, did the original plans. And one of the reasons I got involved was that I had agreement on the part of the developer, first of all, to set aside 27, five acres of watershed land and not develop and so that St. Mary's lake would be protected. That was one of the conditions which met another the conditions was that the pain roads would be through roads, with feeder roads going to small groups and clusters of houses so that the main road would maintain a rural character. And then the developments themselves would be more clustered in more village like in character. There were a lot of things in the plan, which were agreed to. And once the plan was passed, and the zoning plans passed by the islands, try the arms trust and the provincial government, then they did not monitor the development with the result developer, then just ran with it and change the entire plan. Oh, yeah. And they know this, I've been quietly possible. And in fact, at 1.1 of the real estate people in the island was advertising watch. They're in a subdivision designed by an insurer. And I was so incensed since it's been changed and some of the stuff is part of that I took a full page ad and paid for it myself getting the case that plan had been changed, I was no longer and that the trust not held public hearings as I thought they should. Oil changes. Oh, yes, I have much to say.
Speaker 3 1:00:23
Now, I was just driving up there on Sunday with some friends. And the impression is that there are not clusters. It's
Speaker 6 1:00:31
still No, I know they've just strung out. But who wrote driveways long they were supposed to be completely free, the whole time to protect the nicest clusters of trees. And the whole thing is, you can vary
Speaker 3 1:00:51
the sewer. A sewer that battle for 20 years, when it was finally resolved that kind of tremendous improvement to the with it came the development. Sure. So what is your you know, what brought the condominiums which we
Speaker 6 1:01:13
are? Well, I think you're gonna have to take a longer view. And I think my feeling is that. First of all, let me say this about the sewer. The Battle of the sewer was putting in the harbor. Point, the I don't think agrees with act, I think he saw it primarily as an anti development movement. But as far as most of us are concerned who have been, we're opposed to what was done. Never were against the sewer. We were against dumping in harbor in this day and age. Well, when it was originally proposed the outfall and out as far as my baseline road would have been dumped there. As a result of that, it was forced to put five miles away. But basically, from all I know, having done a lot of reading, the principle of putting it in the water is wrong, that it should have been one of a number of slides as well as Yeah, did guested in, and the effluent could have been used as water on the hillsides. And there were all kinds of material that Britain places were done without dumping. So that was the largest struggle as far as I was. There were many systems that were proposed. And the CRD just absolutely turned. We even went so far some groups of people got together and bought a sizable piece of land, so that there could be an effort to dispose of the asset.
Speaker 6 1:03:16
We all were aware of the fact that the size of the pipe and the way that the sewer plant would soon be out of date has happened we were aware of. And it was on the lake becoming a much larger issue in the community. Really, I think that's why it's
Speaker 3 1:03:40
flipped so bad. And so it wasn't just to get Valcourt.
Unknown Speaker 1:03:48
There, there were a large number
Speaker 3 1:03:50
of people who were just basically against dumping or
Unknown Speaker 1:03:53
putting it in this in the
Speaker 3 1:03:57
well now, he claims that the quality of the water is very, very good.
Speaker 6 1:04:02
I don't want to get into no argument about that. And we all have our views. And I am not ascribing any nasty milliers to anybody. All I know is that when you asked me about condominiums, which is what we started, I think that a proper method of treatment or ceiling was essential because we never could have built more densely. And I think inevitably, that as the population grows, there are certain numbers of people who do not want to own and can't own single family houses. So a certain amount of small scale, medium development or apartments is a probably a good balance in the community. And it depends how they're done and how dense they are and where they don't play things. And but I think that you could tuck small apartments in the blinds way. And, again, there's been no large scale overall plan of how to remove that and shopping so that older people can walk from their house, this was one of the ideas that was at the new village
Speaker 6 1:05:31
the village channel riches was designed to be as about the same size as the population. Over time. See, I think that the really big ideas that govern the planning, and the whole planning effort was the concept of density zoning, which you know, about, as a result of the density filming, that was very sincere effort to try and control a population, you know,
Unknown Speaker 1:06:06
get to these, well, not really,
Speaker 6 1:06:10
a Jack Russell was very much involved. Basic idea was to take the whole land area of Salt Springs, and zone it in such a way that when it was fully subdivided, it would provide only for a population of X number of people. And after live discussion is found an optimum power population would be around eight, printed out at 15. Although after the zoning was actually organized and laid on paper, I did a study with a friend of mine, and I am quite convinced it'll go to 26 or 28 hours, which I think is being verified. So that the subdivision process have, you have 100 acre piece of land, and it's in a zone that provides for an average density of five acres. In other words, that 100 acres will only allow 20 Lots, there could be tiny, little lots, and with the balance left open, or there could be 20, big locks each one five acres. So rather than saying this zone is a five acre zone, it's the density of one to five acres. And with the whole sort of pressure to develop, in accordance with a population goal was very much that's been carried out. But it's been modified by guest houses, actually suites and all the other ways of getting the legislation that's where the trust is not.
Speaker 3 1:08:07
So that so that zoning was put in place way back in
Speaker 6 1:08:11
73. Zoning argue out of the community planning, zoning is the legal means of a trend of making the transition from an overall plan to specific maps that show where and how development
Unknown Speaker 1:08:34
works. When you think of this
Speaker 6 1:08:37
help that that's an another subject. And I think that I'd rather not get into it. The reason being that I have a long history of being involved in planning, and I don't at this point, because of my age and previous activities. I don't want to I want it to be known for the people that want to follow orders. It's enough human cry already. So I'm staying out of it, I had criticisms of the whole process. But again, because I think let me put it this this, I will say is that I think that the idea that you can go five years, 10 years or 20 years and do a plan and consider it a finite plan to be only my minute is an impossibility that they always go beyond the time a day. We're supposed to be updated every five years.
Unknown Speaker 1:09:40
20 years, yes. And
Speaker 6 1:09:42
that was legally required, I believe as far as legislation. But what I would much rather see is the trust adopt a series of objectives and goals in a very broad constitutional sense. That would serve the future the island And, and then every year can review everything we buy and revise and and so that the planning process is a continuing process and not a defined for the next 20 years. And then that takes a lot of the curves of the planning process because people feel them that it is evolving and is subject to change that's taking place.
Speaker 3 1:10:27
It's what they supposedly,
Unknown Speaker 1:10:31
that's why they're going to have
Unknown Speaker 1:10:33
accomplished they want to have it accomplished.
Unknown Speaker 1:10:37
And I don't think that's right. No,
Speaker 3 1:10:39
I don't think it is either. And so they're going out of office. And this is, you know, in the School of trustees, and
Speaker 6 1:10:46
because they're they're afraid of some other group who are not as Pro planning as they consider themselves to be. Oh, everybody's talking about
Speaker 3 1:10:58
it. In fact, Scott point had the residents had a meeting yesterday. And and Charles Badgett from Euro Cago came over, and I guess, verify bow and Scott point, I guess, reginal Heller, are all prepared to hire a lawyer. That was original here.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:24
I was a developer.
Unknown Speaker 1:11:26
You were the developer. I
Unknown Speaker 1:11:28
was the planner was with me. Oh, yes.
Speaker 3 1:11:34
I mean, no, I really have never driven him. Do you go do you turn left before just before the ferry?
Speaker 6 1:11:44
UPS and right out to the end? And then there are all kinds of signs thing? Right. It's like America. The preceding was the
Speaker 3 1:11:56
worst. But if it says private drive, do well
Unknown Speaker 1:11:59
just tell him I sent you.
Unknown Speaker 1:12:04
You can do that? No, I'm Yeah, I would like
Speaker 6 1:12:06
to see it's very much like, is it rather densely developed along the watershed that they're under? Did you do what you had a tremendous battle? They wanted to run the road all the way through and connect to Beaver point, which would have meant that whole area would have just been? Absolutely. And that road thing.
Speaker 3 1:12:40
Did you did you know he was an interesting guy. He's very, very
Speaker 6 1:12:52
happy. So Matthew isn't here anymore. He moved to Olympia, Washington. And it's and you're allowed to say it's so three of our children. We have six kids. And three of them are dual says we have a daughter.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:11
And San Francisco who's American, he never works with me here is as long as you don't give up your American citizenship, you can become a Canadian.
Unknown Speaker 1:13:31
I say that again. If
Speaker 6 1:13:32
you're an American, right, and you decide to take Canadian citizenship, you don't forfeit your American citizenship unless you disclaimer
Speaker 3 1:13:43
about voting. Do your Do your children? Do they vote? Yes. They're
Unknown Speaker 1:13:52
Canadian says, Well, I
Unknown Speaker 1:13:53
am talking about in America. Yeah,
Speaker 6 1:13:56
the only thing I think under American law. And I'm not absolutely sure this I don't think you can serve in the foreign in foreign army. But you can vote. You don't. The only thing that takes away your American citizenship as if you give it up. That was the big constitutional decision. We're low subject. In other words, if you're born citizen, nobody can take it away. And give it up.
Unknown Speaker 1:14:31
It's interesting to
Unknown Speaker 1:14:33
oh, I don't really I think a great deal has to do with the state of depression that prevented things and slowed it so this is such a desirable place especially for Canadians. Back east Montreal, burning
Speaker 6 1:14:55
decline that is slowly as a magnet if you Yeah. And of course, the Chamber of Commerce and the real estate agents and anybody, you're just advertising it all over. The wonderful story about somebody pushed an article in New York Times this was about five or six years ago, about in the Travel section section, Sunday, about this wonderful place to go for a vacation in the backwoods. And there was a spread and pictures and so on. As a result. Our friends who ran well, pretty, pretty two telephone calls from New York to reserve a
Speaker 3 1:15:42
place. I remember seeing that article. So one woman called
Speaker 6 1:15:47
him said, I don't want to be about the 20. Floor.
Unknown Speaker 1:15:54
Backwards
Speaker 3 1:16:00
Well, when you there was a travel article in the Los Angeles Times, yes. And they're watching the San Diego as well. When you when you look in the in the driftwood, and see the faces, the many faces of all the realtors on this island, I think in comparison to what it was. We just have, I guess some of them have have left because the times have
Speaker 6 1:16:29
inevitable as long as you have the economy and society we have and that's places you're going to be advertised. And they're going to get spam I lived in for three years in the south of France when I was a youngster. And it was back in 1966. And so
Speaker 3 1:16:54
when you have this population, that's totally Well, there have to be
Unknown Speaker 1:17:03
many ramifications
Unknown Speaker 1:17:07
or what, what I've been doing
Speaker 6 1:17:12
try various experiments, sewage disposal. And I still feel I mean, I think that now, some of the standards and I realized what type in said some of the standards for the disposition of sewage in the harbor, the effluent have been downgraded from the original at is a process which I'm afraid do the pressure. I think it's perfectly figured that development should take place in the village that was part of the original concept. And I rather like the density of development in the city, because people can live there without and a possibility for developing adjustments to the sewer. And I think it's very unfortunate that the people who were opposed to dumping in harbor was seen as a sort of block on develop. We were a block on or time we tended to block quick acceptances. So we're for all kinds of reasons. But the reason was to do it in a way which was which was a series of times and there were all kinds of different ideas, which we had because we were a small community and there hadn't been this horrible political pressure to get it over with get development started. Might have really sort of made a major contribution, at least in this area, to a system that says it all. That's where it broke down.
