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The Roland and Middleditch Families

Roland and Middleditch family photo
Accession Number Presenter the Roland - Middleditch Family
Date February 13, 2013 Location Historical Society presentation at Central Hall
Media digital mp3
ID duration 54 min


Summer 2021


Riley Donovan

Kanaka2013 - created 2013
Mon, 8/9 3:28PM • 54:48
Description: This historical presentation goes into detail about the Roland family’s history, how and why the original Naukana came to the BC coast, the history of Hawaiians coming to BC as workers, and provides a great amount of detail and anecdotes of early Hawaiian life on the island.

Rolands, Cathy Roland, John Roland, Paul Roland, Kanakas, Salt Spring Island, Hudson’s Bay Company, Hawaiians, Portland Island, Russel Island, King Kamehameha, Palau, Hawaii, Hawaiians, William Naukana, Naukanas

Cathy Roland, Audience member, John Roland

(Hawaiian singing)

Cathy Roland 00:36
Aloha. I'm Cathy Roland and I'm here today with my twin sisters Maria and Josie, my niece Lonnie, our cousin Katie and my brother John. We are going to tell you a story about Salt Spring Island, Uncle Paul and the Hawaiians. Uncle Paul was the inspiration for the gathering of our family history. And the efforts to reunite our family with our larger Ohana, who came to the Pacific during the early period of the, the fur trade. Now (unintelligible). Some of you may remember our uncle Paul, he started digging around the roots of our family tree when he was a young man. He was crippled with arthritis. And by the time he was 14 years old, he was spending most of his time with his mother, Matilda, listening to her recall the old days, speak of the old people, sharing stories of the past and reminding him of the traditions so that they wouldn't be forgotten. Oral history, or as the Hawaiian say talk story. Nothing was written down; nothing was ever written down. It was his mother Matilda who told him of the first of our relations to arrive here in the Pacific Northwest. He passed along his mother's stories and what he remembered of our history. And he continually shook our family tree to see how many relations would get knocked out of it. Now I've sort of taken over shaking the family tree for uncle and making use of the internet and archives and historical societies such as this, I've come to prove much of what he believed to be true and solve some mysteries. And maybe you know, you can correct some mistakes, there's always mistakes in genealogy. But Paul began his search with old friends and relatives and asked what they could remember of their grandparents, great grandparents. He wrote letters to the vital statistics and asked for records of births, deaths and marriages. He went anywhere he could think of to find help. He found that the majority of his descendants, the descendants that he spoke to knew from their family oral histories that they were Hawaiian, and that they were mostly all related. But they didn't know how. They had stories, words, traditions, artifacts, photos of, of their ancestors, and many carried the look. They were quite willing to share all the information that they had. And then once the realization that there was so much more to these stories, these histories, just knowing they were Hawaiian was not enough. One of the stories that uncle often told us is that we were related to King Kamehameha. Now, or at least to the royal family if not Kamehameha. And this claim is repeated over and over again by most if not all of the first Hawaiians to arrive here on the coast. I thought this was almost wishful thinking, and maybe his way of embellishing our history. But I wish he was here today because I need to offer an apology, because I found that there's more fact to it than fiction. It surprised me. So, in regard to the Hawaiian families who've ended up here on Salt Spring, preempting land, putting down roots, the Palaus, Kamais, the Haumeas, the Mahois our family the Naukanas, and many more. That journey started a few years before they actually set foot here on Salt Spring Island. So, I'll share a bit of what I know about that journey that started in Hawaii, of course, and over a couple of generations brought the Hawaiians from the Columbia River, the Oregon country, north to San Juan Island, and then here to Salt Spring. So why did they leave Hawaii? This is always a question that's asked. Well, they didn't really leave, they were sent They were sent by King Kamehameha. It was 1811 when he first sent some of his people here it was a year after he conquers the islands, the old King Kamehameha wanted to be the boss of them all. So, he conquered the island in 1810. So, by 1811, he sent them here. And it was because the Americans had pulled into Honolulu on the ship the Tonquin. And they were on their way to establish the first fur trading post here on the Pacific Northwest coast. The captain of the Tonquin asked Kamehameha if he could have 24 men to sail with him to help set up the fort when they arrived here at the Columbia River. Well, Kamehameha, he said, well, I'll send you 11. So, he sent 11 of them to the Pacific Northwest as observers. They were his royal observers, as his eyes and ears to bring back news of the world. Kamehameha was very interested in anything external to his islands. He was a very smart man.

Cathy Roland 06:06
Now, Naukana, a man named Naukana, was one of those 11. He was related to the king. And he was a trusted member of his royal court. And because Naukana resembled one of the men on the Tonquin, they gave him his name, and they called him John Cox. So, he was John Cox Naukana. And he retained that name throughout his entire life here in the Pacific Northwest. John Cox Naukana was our great, great grandfather. Our connection to Salt Spring would not have been possible would not have been made, had John Cox Naukana not been sent on the Tonquin in 1811. He never set foot on Salt Spring. But his son would. John Cox was an elite, he was a chief, of the highest order, and elevated him to a high position in Kamehameha's court... So, uncle Paul was right, we are related to Kamehameha. Go figure that. I believe he took his role as the king's eyes and ears seriously. And starting in the summer of 1811, just shortly after they arrived here, he travelled the breadth of the North American continent. He got out to Thunder Bay area, he got on a ship, he went to England, they came back across and went to Brazil down around (unintelligible) there, back to the Columbia River by 1814. And all without frequent flyer. He ended up going back to Hawaii as promised, and he reported to the king, and he made many trips back and forth to Hawaii and to other destinations in his lifetime over the next few years. And he continued to serve King Kamehameha until the King's death in 1819. And a few years later, in 1823, he was asked to accompany King Kamehameha the Second to England again. So now he's going back to England, so the king and the queen and Naukana and all that court went to England, but they contracted the measles somewhere along the line, just about everyone died, except for John Cox Naukana. And he returned to the Hawaiian Islands with their bodies. This was Cox's last trip to the Hawaiian Islands. And it's unclear why he left to make Fort Vancouver, his home. The reasons range from politics to religion, why he might not have stayed. He was no longer bound by his loyalty to King Kamehameha. So, he returned to work at Fort Vancouver, and he offered his services to the Hudson's Bay Company. They now own Fort Vancouver. The Americans had it, now the Hudson's Bay. The British. He left the Hawaii behind to finish out his years in the Pacific Northwest. And he returned to Fort Vancouver to at least one wife, maybe two. By this time, the Hawaiians were traveling back and forth to the islands on a much more regular basis. So even though John Cox never returned to the islands, I would hope that he didn't leave all the ways behind him.

Cathy Roland 10:03
(Hawaiian singing) John Cox Naukana, Old Cox, died on (unintelligible) on February 2nd, 1850, and is buried at the Hudson's Bay cemetery. it was John Cox's son William, he was born about 1813 and its William Naukana, who ended up here on Salt Spring. So now, you're getting a little bit closer to home.

Cathy Roland 10:30
We don't know much about his early years. In fact, it's not known whether he was born in Hawaii, or perhaps here somewhere around Fort Vancouver where his father lived. Recent research, I've had lots of lots of help in this genealogy search. And a good friend of mine and on the Big Island of Hawaii, Kauai, is getting sort of close to thinking that maybe he was, he was, birthplace was not in Hawaii, but here in the Pacific Northwest. But oral history has him being born in Hawaii (unintelligible). Uncle Paul has told us all about Naukana's life in Hawaii first and then coming to the Pacific Northwest, about 1835. And then he helped to build Fort Victoria in 1943 (she must mean 1843). However, the first time he appears in the Hudson's Bay records that we can actually trace, and I'm sort of a stickler on documents. I'm always told by my brothers and other genealogists don't get hung up with documentation, just because it can't be documented and there's no paper, doesn't mean that it's not true. A lot of our histories is oral, so you have to go with that sometimes. But we can trace William Naukana in the Hudson's Bay Company from 1845 on. And he did 10 years with them up to 1855. Uncle told us that when Naukana retired in 1855, he returned to Hawaii, and he found that his land had been appropriated and was now a plantation. So, like his father before him he returned to live out the rest of his life in the Pacific Northwest. He shows up in the Hudson's Bay records again, this time working in the Bellevue sheep farm, that's on San Juan Island, just very close to here. Some people think San Juan Island is so far away and it's not. It's very close, and that's where they lived, and worked. San Juan island was still in disputed territory at that time, it was neither BC nor Washington state, but shortly after it was awarded to the Americans, William Naukana and a large group of the Hawaiians moved to the Gulf Islands. He and his good friend john Palau, preempted Portland island - two lots each. Naukana arrived on Portland with five daughters, all that had been born on San Juan Island. His youngest daughter, Matilda, was born on Portland Island in 1877. The only one of his daughters that I know of that was born here in Canada. Matilda married and moved to Salt Spring at Fulford harbour. Her father William also moved to Salt Spring after he sold the last of his land on Portland Island in 1907. William Naukana died at the age of 96 in 1909. And he's buried in St. Paul's church in Fulford. There's a plaque at the church in honour of the Hawaiians and their First Nations families. It reads "the life of the land is perpetuated in righteousness (unknown Hawaiian words, someone who knows can fact check what this plaque says in Hawaiian).

John Roland 15:05
Good afternoon, my name is John Roland. It occurred to me as I was preparing for this last evening that, when I went to school here on Salt Spring, through good luck or good management, I never had to take one class with Bob McWorther (?). And 45 years later, he's got me at home doing homework. And the task at hand was to collect up a couple of these stories and put them in an organized fashion. It's like you're trying to organize a bag of nails. But when you take an oral history and write it down and then digitalize it and stuff it into the computer, is it still an oral history? At any rate, my sister Kath has told you a bit about our uncle Paul, and his influence on our family. And on many of the other families. We spent a couple of months each year traveling out to the other, to visit his other nieces and nephews, to spread the good word and keep everyone interested in the history that he was dealing with. For me, it really began with his father. My grandfather, Peter Roland, who lived on the adjoining property to us at Fulford harbour. And came virtually every day to sit with Uncle Paul. And we often would go back with him to his place to do his chores, we listened to the stories. And whenever it came, whenever the topic of the old Hawaiian came up, Naukana, he always deferred to Uncle Paul. He said that Uncle Paul was the man who remembered the news. And that he was the one who preserved the stories of all the old Hawaiians.

John Roland 17:25
Paul, as Kath mentioned, very much suffered from rheumatoid arthritis, left him paralyzed in a sitting position in his early teens. He recalled, he told me one time that he overheard the doctor, tell his mother that he wouldn't live to see his 21st birthday. And it became his goal to prove the doctor wrong, which he did with 50 years to spare. Through all his pain and paralysis, though, he was still the happiest, most enthusiastic man I've ever known. His passion for preserving the stories and in later life writing them down, was well known in our family and became quite infectious. He often told me that it was my family job to remember his stories, make them your story and make them your own. And be sure to tell him to your children. It was the important stories that he told, and he told them many times. And they were told the same way each time. It was somewhere between reciting a poem or singing a chant. But it was important to him that some of the important stuff stay true and stay the same. My first effort trying to record, trying to write down all this, occurred when Uncle Paul was visiting my house. Recited for me 350 names of people of family members, it covered three generations. It was, it was amazing that you can remember in one sitting, 350 who married who, whose children, how many children, who raised the children and all the other complexities that went on between the various families. It took many hours of my time, at the archives and museum, various other places, vital statistics, to try to prove Uncle Paul to be right and he was largely correct with all those names. But in a lot of cases the documentary evidence just wasn't there. The one document that we've worked with is not there. Sister Kath can tell you that even today with the Internet, and all the other tools at our disposal, documentary evidence is still pretty hard won. Hawaiian names were hybridized and changed by the record keepers and by the Hawaiians themselves. A lot of the record keeping that we have researched (?) came to us from the Hudson's Bay Company. They were keeping track of a business deal not trying to record our written history. They, all the record keepers of the day, struggled with what to do with those Kanakas. They didn't quite know how to classify them. We were often, we were often treated as quite a big part of the Indians. But the Indians knew we weren't. In the early census, they asked for your racial background, and they gave you a choice, of being black or white or red or yellow. No brown.

John Roland 21:28
one of my one of my favorite stories from Uncle Paul was about a fellow by the name of Kaye (?), who eventually lived at Isabella point, he had come over in the middle 1800s. Like so many others worked his way from Columbia River to landing in Victoria. Old Kaye () was a neighbor of John Vaugh, lived down at Isabella point and, and visited Palau every day. And it was always noted that we had the man showing up when a meal was about to be put on the table. In the summer of 1890, word went around that the Palaus had taken in a boarder. The new schoolteachers for Isabella point school, Mr. Alfred Cook. And at this point, Kaye stopped showing up. And he was missing for a week or more. And he didn't return until he heard that Cook had gone off to Victoria on school business The next morning, just about noon, when the lunches was just about to be, be laid, Kaye walks into Palau's kitchen, and Cook is sitting there at the table. He'd missed his boat, his boat ride to Victoria... When John Palau made the polite introductions, Kaye blurts out, he says "Mr. Cook. I no killing your grandfather. I no eating your grandfather. To Kaye, all white Cooks were from the same clan. And Cook had, or Kaye rather, had often told the story of his grandfather's attendance at the event that the (unintelligible). The anniversary of that event by the way is tomorrow. 234 years tomorrow. John Palau in his younger days, worked at Fort Victoria and was in fact, we believe he was there during the construction of Fort Victoria, and worked there for a number of years. And he lived just outside the fort, on what they called the Kanaka Road where many of the Hawaiians lived. And Kanaka Road is now Humboldt Street. And he appears from time to time in the police record of the day for the sin of breaking window glass. Window glass was expensive and hard to come by in those days. And after a heated dispute with his neighbor, he poked all his windows out to help him cool down. At our house, when we were growing up if you were whining and complaining for any reason whatsoever. Someone usually my father would say he pointed me to that's my new dog Bull. And this was a reference to a story about Maria Mahoi having a conversation with grandpa Naukana. The conversation took place one summer evening, Maria Mahoi was at home on Russell Island. And she heard a lot of whining, crying and complaining, coming from Portland Island, just about three nautical miles to the southeast. But it was a wonderful warm summer evening, when the air is just right, and sound travels beautifully. So, she hears all this going on and she, she accuses, she yells William, are you beating your wife? No, comes back the answer, that's my new dog Bull. He's trying to train his Labrador pup. You know, still you can go to Portland Island in the evening, and when the, when the conditions are just right, you can hear the boarding announcements of the Swartz Bay ferry terminal. The last of the Mahois to live on Russell Island was Abel Douglas, Maria Mahoi's son, as an old man in the 1960s, they rarely if ever left his island. It was the Roland family, the Lasseter brothers, the King family, and Pattersons, who all kept tabs on Abel, to make sure he got what he needed. Everybody knew that if he built his signal fire on the Isabella point end of the Russel Island, it was an invitation to drop by for a visit. But if the signal fire is at the Eleanor point it meant, he needed you there soon, today. The normal trip for us would be to row out to Russel Island, pick up his shopping list, row out to Fulford harbour. And W.B Patterson, eventually, shuffle over and fill the order. And it was, there was always, there was always a bottle of pop or chocolate bar for the crew. So, my brothers and I would then take it back out, pick out the groceries, deliver to them to Abel. When you got to Russell Island there was a, the old Mahoi house which is still there today, has a little clam garden beach beside it, and a big rock shelf in front, and you put the boat along the rock shelf, if the tide was right. And he didn't want you to put your boat on the clam beach, so the clam garden was terraced rock, leveled out so clams could be raised and it was planted or created by the natives in years past. It was called Sick Claim beach and you didn't want to put your boat on Sick Clam beach. As kids, we just accepted that, there was something wrong with those clams. And it was quite a number of years later that there was nothing wrong with the clams. But he figured that no matter how old or sick he got, he could always crawl down there and get a few clams.

John Roland 28:25
In 1971 I accompanied Uncle Paul on a trip to, on his first trip to Hawaii. Pat Crofton, who was raised on Salt Spring, was chaperoning the Kamehameha Boys Choir all around the province and was traveling on the ferry from Vancouver to Swartz Bay and in his company was a reporter from the Honolulu Advertiser and he made some offhand comment, oh on that island over there we've got some Hawaiians over there. The next morning, Mary Cook was the woman's name, was in Fulford harbour trying to get Bill Patterson to tell about the Hawaiians which he said were on the island. Mary Cook was a direct descendant of Amos Cook, who was one of the early Hawaiian missionaries. The result was a free trip for the lost Hawaiians. (unintelligible) Airlines and the Honolulu Advertiser took us all to Hawaii. Took uncle Paul, my aunt Sophie his sister, and they asked me to travel with them as his valet; it was a joke of course. At the time, I was working a summer job, about to return to BCIT for another semester, when I get the call from Uncle Paul, I was on a tugboat in Sacks harbour, Dens Island (?) in the central Arctic. There was several boats, planes and helicopters to get back to Vancouver and there was six hours to spare to accompany them to Hawaii. It was quite a trip. There were all sorts of little foibles. They said oh Paul, don't bring your wheelchair we've got a wheelchair for you on the plane. Well Paul was a pretty big guy, and he had a pretty big wheelchair. They bring out this cute little wheelchair, he wouldn't fit. And his wheelchair wouldn't fit between the seats, so we had to carry him above the seats to the cargo bay, with the pineapples. Well, they, by the way, I arrived in Hawaii still wear a knit, woolen arctic T-shirt. Very comfortable. Mary Cook, Mary was very impressed with how Hawaiian uncle Paul and Sophie looked. And she sort of told everybody; wasn't that impressed with me, me not so much. But then she couldn't get over Paul's mannerisms, he seemed to fit right in with what she expected them to be. One of the first, the first people we met when we finally got on the ground in Hawaii was the princess (unintelligible). That was the last, officially the last princess in Hawaii, to have descended from the (unintelligible). In her reading, she made quite a bit to do about readings to the lost Hawaiians, and Uncle Paul says to her, but (unintelligible) we didn't know you were looking for us.

John Roland 32:22
It was a real busy time. And it was a steady stream of people coming to see Paul and talk to him. At that point, I knew of about 13 families that had come from Hawaii. And we had hundreds of people looking for news about their people who had left, gone to the fur trade, come to this coast, and had gone everywhere else in between. We seemed to realize early on, that there were a lot more families. A lot more Hawaiian men that left the islands. One of the high points for me occurred when Uncle Paul was speaking with the curator of the Bishop Museum and was telling this woman the Salt Spring version of the murder Captain Cook or the killing of Captain Cook at any rate. Some people say it was a murder some people say it was an execution. The end result was the same. Some of the details of the things he told her. left her with her mouth open. The jibe of the stories that she had been told as a child were a very unofficial version, but she had been told the same things as a child. She said to him, how would you know something like that? And uncle Paul says well, you know I think we had a witness. As I mentioned the anniversary of Cook's death is tomorrow. Valentine's Day to some folks, kind of never been Valentine's Day to me. 30 odd years ago, I was working in Vancouver. I took a couple of coworkers out for cocktails to commemorate the day. And in this group was a building contractor by the name of Clyde Philips Wooley. His grandfather, great grandfather, purchased Portland Island from Naukana and Palau in 1907. One of the local tugboaters, a fellow by the name of William Alice (?), whose namesake ancestor had sailed with Cook as the ship's artist. Last but not least, was my Australian naval architect partner John Douglas Carlton. Now John, maintained that Cook's crowd had sent his family off sailing to Australia simply for borrowing a sheep from someone in Scotland.

John Roland 35:16
We were drinking toasts, Nelson's flood and all, to, as the British Admiralty said he was the man whose competence changed the world. Pretty nice thing to have said about you. So, we're having a drink to Captain Cook and I said, I take exception to the Admiralty. In the books, the the Admiralty always depicts some crazed Hawaiian stabbing Captain Cook in the back of with an iron knife made out of a nail he's supposed to have pried out of the bottom, of the boat, which is not an easy thing to do. I said you know, my uncle Paul, he said that Captain Cook was killed with a throwing stone. And it was thrown by a guy who had trained all his life to be strong and accurate with throwing stones. And so, my Australian partner says well, that settles it, it's brick a palm day. So, it's always been that. For me growing up on Salt Spring Island, being a little bit different. It was rarely an issue. Everyone was a little bit different. And I had to be to be here in the first place.

John Roland 36:37
You know, what we what I recall is that you were you were judged by how you performed rather than how you would, traced your background. It kind of all came clear for me a few years later when I met an old native fellow by the name of Iron Vickers (?). I was at his house in Victoria, trying to kind of attract the attention of his daughter. And so, a lot of us sort of waiting in the line. He offered me fry bread and (unintelligible). And I never turned up one of those days. He says so you're one of those half-assed Hawaiians from Salt Spring, are you? And I said yeah. And he says tell me something that in Hawaiian. Well, I really don't speak Hawaiian. He says, well your great grandmother was a native woman, must've been a native woman. What was her name? I don't know, we never were able to find out. Geez he said, it must be hard for you. He says, it must be real hard for you, you don't know much about being a Hawaiian and you're sure not much of an Indian. It kind of got easier for me after that. Being comfortable with who you are is, is no more important than being comfortable with who you are not. It's holding your own history, holding your own history in your hand in a documented proof in your hand is no more important than holding your history in your heart and in your head.

Cathy Roland 38:48
(singing) "Be, here on Salt Spring they would see what's become of us, and this place we call home, they lay the foundation with (unintelligible), their blood, sweat and tears have kept us strong, it's because of them that we are here. (Hawaiian singing)

Cathy Roland 39:56
So, that's the journey as we know it. King Kamehameha sends John Cox who first works for the Americans, then the British in the fur trade, spends out his life in Fort Vancouver, Washington. His son William Naukana, our great grandfather, works for the Hudson's Bay Company and all the inland and coastal posts. And in his involvement with the Company at Bellevue farm. Yes, he ended his involvement with the Hudson's Bay Company at Bellevue farm on San Juan Island. Then when the border disputes placed San Juan Island, on the American side of the border, Naukana and about 50 other Hawaiians, moved to this side, to Canada, which is sort of you know, that's how they got here to Salt Spring. They came to San Juan Islands, they came to Salt Spring, Coal Island, Darcy Island. Are there any questions?

Audience member 41:09
When I went to school there was a Gwen Lumley. Are they related to the Rolands?

Cathy Roland 41:11
In a roundabout calabash cousin way. Gwen Lumley was the daughter of Bill Lumley? No, Ed Lumley. Ed. Ed's brother, uh sisters was Mary Lumley. Mary Lumley was married to our uncle Kelly. So, it's sort of like this. Not really. We're all related to Mary Lumley and our uncle Kelly Harris, but not to Gwen. Yeah.

Audience member 41:50
My question was, why did they leave the San Juan Islands there. What was their problem?

Cathy Roland 41:57
It was when they drew the border through the islands. At that time, when they were there working for the Hudson's Bay Company, it was disputed area, it was not BC, it was not...

Audience member 42:08
So, they had to get out of U.S.A.

Cathy Roland 42:09
Yes. They didn't have to, they could stay, but they didn't have a lot of rights or privileges, if they stayed. They weren't allowed to own land, they weren't allowed to vote, there was lots of reasons to not stay. Coming to Canada, become a naturalized citizen. You can own land you can vote.

Audience member 42:28
Cause I was a bit confused because they obviously didn't like Cook very much so why come to a British colony?

Cathy Roland 42:35
They actually love the British, you know. Captain Cook just ran afoul of a few bad characters, you know, you're in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Audience member 42:36
The brick chucker.

Cathy Roland 42:41
Yeah, you know, someone hit him with a brick. No, the Hawaiians had a very good relationship with the British, they loved the British and they at one point hoped that the British would annex their islands, but the Americans sort of like went in there, took them over.

Audience member 43:04
I have a card here waiting to give to someone in your family. It was given to me at least 10 years ago at a gathering on Salt Spring from a gentleman from Hawaii, who claims to be your relatives and he's related to the golden family. Here I am finally delivering it.

Cathy Roland 43:26
Oh, thank you, oh look what it says here, Captain Kiko Johnson. (unintelligible) And this was this was like 10 years ago? I wonder if he's still around, like at this number I mean.

Audience member 43:38
Yeah, it would be nice to try.

Cathy Roland 43:44
Well, we got the phone number and we've got a web address. We'll give him a call. Kiko Johnson, Kiko (unintelligible), there's a good Hawaiian name.

Audience member 43:59
Do you know who owned the land at the end of Isabella point where the little islands are?

Cathy Roland 44:05
Right down at the end of Isabella point, that used to be the...

Audience member 44:05
Drew Thorburn

Audience member 44:10
Next to Thorburn

Cathy Roland 44:12
Next to Thorburn's?

Audience member 44:14
Thorburns live there now but do you know who lived there originally?

Cathy Roland 44:17
Originally? (chatter) the Tahouneys. Mawanas. And the Tahouney. It was the Tahouney farm, I remember that. Who's there now, Thorburns?

Audience member 44:41
Drew Thorburn, the old Lumley house

Audience member 44:49
Well, my daughter owns that little hunk of property now, that's why I was asking.

Cathy Roland 44:53
Oh, well, it was it was the Tahouney. Tahouney was the name they chose from the (unintelligible). I've never been good with this. I don't know if it was Kahana, Mawana, Nuwana? Yes, all those names. But the old Hawaiian family, the name changed a lot in there, and it ended up being Tahouney. Now how they got that out of Nuwana or Kahana?

Audience member 45:17
How do you spell that please? T-A-H-O-U-N-E-Y?

Cathy Roland 45:22
That's it. I think there's a Tahouney road. Is it down there, or is it? Yes, that is exactly the spelling.

Audience member 45:33
You didn't mention about your family's clam bakes?

Cathy Roland 45:37
Oh, at Jackson's beach. Why do they call it Jackson beach? It was right down at Fulford, right in Fulford harbour there. Just when you get down to the head of the harbour and you turn to your right to head up Isabella point, just right away. There was this place we called Jackson's Beach, it's Drummond Park now. And we always used to have these huge, big parties. Dad made clam chowder, and everybody seemed to love that dad's clam chowder, and I was, it was okay. But like we sort of, it was sort of like regular food for us. It wasn't anything special. But when he made his clam chowders, everybody was wild about (unintelligible) clam chowder, they were always trying to get his recipe. And they'd can ask him, jack, how do you make this clam chowder so good? All, all he would say was lots of clams. The only hint he would give them, it was actually a pretty, pretty simple recipe but he wouldn't tell them. Yes, we did that, we've actually dad used to do that with Pirate Days, or Pirate Bay, at least I don't know if it was two three days or one day, but he was big on that. He always had his clamshell down, 'till he ground his finger off one time making the clams. Anybody else?

Audience member 47:07
When you've been doing your research in Hawaii, how many islands have you still got living family on?

Cathy Roland 47:17
There's probably way more family than I know of, at this time, right now on the Big Island of Hawaii at the homestead house we (unintelligible) is there. (unintelligible). She was one of the (unintelligible) married to Fred Lau over there. On Oahu, we have quite a few family members. Sadly, the older ones are going now. We lost our Auntie Mary, she was 95 years a few years ago. But her grandchildren, great grandchildren, are there. Don't keep in touch with them much. You know, it's sort of like they're the this younger generation that you know, they're embarrassed to be around you. Cause you're old. But they're there. So at least Oahu was a big island. There are Naukanas, lots of Naukanas, on Maui. But I have not been to Maui for many years. There's probably some on every island. We're getting around.

Audience member 48:14
Talk about getting around, we visited the house on Russell Island. Yes. And the Mahoi relatives (unintelligible) we went there and there were different Mahoi relatives, and some of them came from Nanaimo I believe. How many actual blood relatives are there around? Or just say with that Mahoi family?

Cathy Roland 48:44
Oh, hundreds? Hundreds. They were all, most of the families are quite large. My father was one of 16 children. I don't think he ever knew his oldest brother. Never knew a (unintelligible). He was up and gone before, well he was raised by an older Auntie, (unintelligible) children. But even, even at that he was long gone before father was born. So, the one of 16 so we know, and then we're one of eight, our family, so they're big families. So, we stretch out a long way. So, there's probably hundreds of Mahois.

Audience member 49:19
The Mahois family on Russel Island, ten years ago, it wasn't (unintelligible).

Cathy Roland 49:25
Yes, yeah, there's, there are lots of Larry Bell Robertsons or there's so many. Maria Mahoi had 13 children, about 13, so they spanned a few generations up there.

Audience member 49:38
Douglasses, Fishers.

Cathy Roland 49:39
Douglas, Fisher, yeah, Maria Mahoi was married to Captain Abel Douglas first. My brother was talking about their son Abe. We call that Abe's island you know, Russell Island. We always called it Abe's island because uncle Abe lived there. And then you go, Uncle Abe, he was not really a blood relative but you called your elders out of respect auntie and uncle, and so then you try and work that out in your genealogy? Well, it was our uncle. Well, not really, but sort of. Yes.

Audience member 50:13
You said there's a god book on Maria Mahoi.

Cathy Roland 50:16
There is a good book on Maria Mahoi. Is that Jean Barman's? Yes. Yes, very informative, Jean was a fabulous genealogist.

Audience member 50:28
When you had your clam bakes, did other islanders come, I'm asking this because I'm interested in the racial interaction Because I'm interested in the racial interaction, were you friends with blacks or you know, was there a segregation because of colour?

Cathy Roland 50:50
Not really, we didn't know sort of or feel any, any unrest. The community at large was everyone was part of the community there was never any problem about racial prejudice. More amongst ourselves. We had the Fulford Indians, and then there was us (unintelligible). But that was just sort of joking. That was the (unintelligible) in us. But no, no, I never felt any real prejudice. Every now and then, you'd have to ride in the back of the bus because it smelled like smoke from Silcum's (?) smokehouse, that was about as close as it comes. And a lot of that was just poking fun too.

Audience member 51:39
Did the old Kanaka restaurant have anything to do with your family?

Cathy Roland 51:43
That was run by Jackie Hembrook Hagan Lumley (unintelligible). Yeah, she was an alias. But Auntie Sophie was Mary Lumley. She, she called her alias, that was her nickname, we were big on giving everybody nicknames. And still are, but she called Mary Lumley alias. And I finally asked her, I said auntie, say why do you call her alias? Ah, she’s been married so many times. She just had another alias, Jackie. Jackie is still alive. She's living with her daughter. Port Alberni? And she was here for the spirit walk (unintelligible) a year or so ago. And she was yeah, she ran the Kanaka place, and she was Edna when she started. And Gwen. And then her grandmother would have been Old Mawana.

Audience member 52:55
There are so many Hawaiian descendants; you should have a Hawaiian Day Festival.

Cathy Roland 53:15
Maybe we should work on that, yeah, we could probably work on that together. Well today I like to visit with Hawaiian families, you know we're looking for people all the time. Today, we're real honored to have Ralph Bolin and his daughter here, they're family of the Palaus. I just met them today, they joined us from Vancouver. So, we're going to welcome them to the Ohana, and the search goes on. Please shall we say thank you to these people. We will leave you with (unintelligible) mahalo mahalo news. (Hawaiian singing)