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Ganges Sewer

Tom Toynbee

Tom Toynbee’s address to the SSI Historical Society on the Ganges Sewer Project, including the Fifth Estate CBC Dcumentary film on the political aspect of it.

Accession Number Interviewer SSI Historical Society Address
Date April 10, 2001 Location Central Hall
Media Audio CD
ID 184 Duration




Unknown Speaker 0:17
Keep here at the back to give you some idea on Chinese background and credentials, so it shouldn't take more than about two hours. Tom was born and raised in Salt Spring Island. And his association goes back 116 years. Not that he's that Oh, that was 116 years ago in 1885. It is more grandparents arrived on Saltspring Island 753 acres on the other side of St. Mary late 13 years later, his grandfather died at the age of 45, leaving 11 children one of those children was Jesse more farms a little later than that. Tom's mother sorry, Tom's grandmother, son Gilbert, bought the multi purpose store and Angie's store became that name ever since. Tom graduated from high school here in 1952 and are now the UBC or E commerce degree imply that UBC He was active on a student council and on the road. While he was passing through 1954. Their crew won the British Empire Games gold medal for the following year, was on the ABC crew that went through Henry in effect the World Championships are rolling out all the other crews in the world except for Nicky became second put on a good show. After graduation, we went to work for Cooper Whitman unbroken to Calgary first and then moved back to Vancouver in 1967 as general manager in your Vancouver 1969 he and his brothers and other family members bought out the more cousins and took over ownership of more store manager from 1971 71. Until today, well, theoretically retired a year, two years so I guess we could say is basically in the way to public service. He in the 1970s didn't have enough to do with the store I guess because he chaired the BC Housing Commission and then went on for 11 years to chair the BC government. My mother is other community activities along with myself and to others. He is a trustee of the Saltzman foundation manages the community endowment. Concerning the Ganges sewer system, there's probably no one else who knows as much about the history and he's been involved with it for over 20 years and was cared the sewer committee since it was formally constituted in 1983. Remains Chairman until today. You will probably wanted to get to that sometime. Probably wanted to give it up a long time ago. But who else is going to take on such a tough job. But now that we know a little bit about Tom's background and his credentials, let's give a warm welcome to all of us. Great energy.

Unknown Speaker 4:17
1234 Thanks, Bob. Thanks very much. It's nice of Bob to do this. Who introduced me today and he was really quite accurate. Almost almost everything except for earning a commerce degree. They gave it to me at the end of my stay at UBC wanting to get me out I think at that time, I enjoyed the university so much I could have stayed on for a lot longer. Secondly, it's very fitting that Bob should introduce me here because he's apparently was my first visitor when I was born. And ladies mental hospital when it was up Ganges Hill. My mother always told me that he arrived in gumboots, nothing else to view the new baby. That's the story we're going to live with that.

Unknown Speaker 5:18
Your mother wouldn't tell him.

Unknown Speaker 5:22
I was asked why? Why am I going to talk about on this subject? Well, there's a couple of reasons. A, Tom Wright asked me to speak about something and be, I've been asked by so many people over the years. What was this all about? Anyway, I am always at a loss to try and explain it outside of four or five hours. And so I'm gonna try and condense that a great deal today. And I'm not sure I'll really explain what it was all about. But a lot of you are here, you have a pretty good age, like, I wasn't sure what the audience was going to be the day. And I didn't ask some of my friends on the other side of the issue to be here. And I'm sorry, there was a couple of particular I'd like to have to talk on the subject, because it couldn't get any better and telling the other side of the story than I'm going to do, obviously, as an act of combat, have a bias in this. And I will pretend that there isn't the I guess, if you wanted to say very few words, what was it all about? Well, it was about pollution real and imagined. It was about unwanted growth and visions of high rises rising over Ganges. It was about Tax Loans, fear of tax loads that were couldn't be afforded if user charges were gonna break everybody on the island. It was about business competition. It was it ended up being involved in party politics at the provincial level, they went the whole the whole course. So I'm going to get into this and try and move pretty quickly through it. And I don't know how good your memories are on all of this. But I went to work and went through all drip floods and old notes and information of Frank Richards gave me the farmer Richards had. His wife had developed years and years ago by submission to the CRD. And this was an enormous help. By the way, I don't know what I think the driftwood is shrunk in size by 50%. But they have a sewer where the story is filled up week after week. So I'm going to talk about how it started, how it developed and how after almost 25 years, it was almost resolved. I'm going to also share a few personal experiences that I hope will be of interest to you. And there's going to be a 20 minute film entitled pipe dreams done by the Fifth Estate Eric malling in 1983, which I think is great. taking us back to what it was like in the midst of the fray. This will refresh the memories of those who were here at the time and add to the understanding of those who weren't. And if there are people in the audience at the end, we could add a little bit to this and give their side of it I'd be most interested to hear and I'm sure everybody else would. In 1962 May 31 provincial health inspectors did some tests of the septic tanks and Ganges is tested 29 buildings this will be in the core of the village. They found 29 failed systems discharged into the sea, the creek and the streets. And those who are here will remember the aroma on warm summer days and the Ganges river system for a very long time. And I remember very well as a boy and so all my brother's bicycling down the road from Warren Hastings houses in present time have to ever hold our breath, Hastings house and not free until we passed harbor house on the other side. That's how bad it was. All through the summer. This was, shall we say good historical sewage. going a long time. In 64. A sewer improvement district is proposed on a study was undertaken. But they found that they weren't going to be able to finance this there wasn't a method of financing because there's no municipal government. So a group of people came up with the idea of a village municipality of Ghana issues and this was a referendum took place, but the boat failed I think was on the order of 46 or 48% makeup. So that was 66 and 67. Play 69 Doctor breadwinner read the medical health officer warned of health problems, potential health problems and Ganges and called for a sewer system. In 1970, a year later, the CRS CRD estimated Ganges sewer to be $331,000, and it was deemed to be financially unfeasible. Remember that number later? 331,000. What was the position of bullets as Bob has pointed out, I'm talking about bullets training company. My brothers, Norman Bullock, and our families had bought Molex the 1960s tonight. And we came merrily into the place. I moved here in 71. And we created a very, rather contentious landfill, in Ganges that became contentious. And we then really discovered what the sewer problem was, because up until that time, virtually all the buildings in Ganges discharged into the sea, one way or another, might be direct or indirect, when we put the landfill in discharging with the sea anymore. So we had a very definite problem when we realized somebody who's going to have to be done about this. So in other words, the mullet mullet brothers store, it did pretty much go at this time into the sea, a very short distance to the sea anyway. And the other buildings in the core of the Bank of Montreal that have been built. And quite frankly, I don't know what they had, and they had a septic tank, but I don't know where the effluent when they found its way out of the water. And it would have been built in 1966. In any case, we found we had a significant problem. So we thought, well, we have to address this and we went to people who are specialists in the field is that well, you need a treatment plan. And then somewhere to put the apple in some sort of a drainage field, but you have to have a treatment plan, because septic field is not going to give you sufficient quality of effluent to to discharge it on land. And it just won't be enough space. So we asked for information on this and started working on the process. And one day, I was in my office upstairs in the store and the health officer walked in the door, shut the door beside behind him and he said Mr. Tang, I hear you're going to apply for a permit from waste management. I said yes. And he said we will object to it. So I said you're threatening us we legal action because we got a sewer problem and we want to address it. He said to me, this isn't going to solve the problem. But the village this, this town needs a sewer community sewer system and we allow you to put this in, you have no incentive to support it. And it was right after we spent a lot of money. So I said what do you propose we do? He said Well, you have to make the best best of what you can with the existing problem. So we got on the sewer bandwagon, and it moved fully forward quite slowly. But in 1974, a proposal was put forward and and a permit was actually given to for discharge into the harbor. There was a an appeal of that by this spec is society promoting environmental conservation. It failed the permit raised a number of concerns with the major ones, the shallow water and poor current flow at the point of outfall. They had very good points, but frankly, very strong arguments ended up falling on and would have had to be linked very, very soon. The appeal was successful, and the permit was revoked. We're now into 7513 years after the problem had been mentioned. The death of the permit the health department crackdown on the quote offenders in the village. polluters are given a short time to solve problems or faced legal action ironically the schools and the hospitals, the really big polluters are exempt.

Unknown Speaker 15:06
Their discharges are large and beyond the jurisdiction of the Health Department, the health department only covered permits up to 5000 gallons a day. Because they were deemed to be larger. The health department didn't have jurisdiction, went to the waste management branch or the pollution control branch was called at that time. The pollution control branch decided not to take any action with regard to the big polluters. You can imagine the frustration of those of us who have relatively small discharge who were threatened with court action. Well, the big ones go completely untouched. And that went on for a very long time. CRD Saltspring director George Hynek he presented a plan this is a 1977. For a secondary sewage treatment plant with a longer outfall. The new price tag is $2.3 million. So roughly 2 million from before, was designed to serve a scenario from Greenwood's the top of Ganges Hill, the agreements on the north atop Ganges Hill on the south. Also in 77, a petition was mounted in the designated area, and it requires the signatures of 66 and two thirds percent of the property owners in the area. In November, the CRD Executive Director Dennis yarn declares the petition complete with 68% in favor, the sewer seems destined Go ahead. In 1978, no sooner had the petition been certified the number of citizens questions its validity. Forged signatures are alleged. Some residents of the Ganges Hill claim that they have been misled by overzealous petition supporters. The CRD decides to abandon the petition 1978 Again, the new Saltspring Director, Jim brace, who actually had been elected on an anti sewer platform reported that 75 to 80% of the property owners in phase one were in favor of the sewer. Phase one is where that was actually built from the roughly break road up to now break worthy. That's the part that was actually built. He determined that 75 to 80%. Were in favor, the CRD decided to ask the pollution control director to issue an order requiring the installation of a sewer system and Phase One on the grounds of an imminent health problem. The order was granted. Planning for the system goes on in 79 with a new budget of 2.4 5 million. So it's not up to so I don't know how it came down. But that was I guess leaving up the Ganges Hill. an outfall permit with a full length now at 1.5 Miles is granted by the pollution control branch. Tension between the Pro and anti forces is growing. And appeal of the new outfall permit is launched by a group led by CRD director elective ethylenically. The pollution control board sits in this hall for a record and five days to hear the appeal. And those of us who were on the pro side of that part of the very frustrating exercise because we didn't say anything. But it went on for five days. Remember Dr. Herman Kirsch where are the black Florida on this ball? Computing how once virus that survived 24 hours in the water and Ganges and arrived on his beach. He did it with a hand calculator and it took about four hours was most painful. It's pretty simple. But I'm digressing. The atmosphere in this meeting is pasta. It's very it's an ugly very. And to give you a little idea of what things were like in the village then for those who weren't we are forgotten. I had filed a suit against you that valid court for defamation of character. A year later she sued me. So we're both doing opera about the upper Ganges Village. Now the what was called the Valcourt center in those days was viewed as the headquarters of the probe from the anti sewer group. And the downtown gang, which we're referring to, was headquartered at Molex. And this, this is no joking. I'm looking at somebody in the room, you're no no's this particularly well. It was a very, very tense period, people boycotted one side or the other, they wouldn't shop it fell apart and some some frozen people. Some of the anti sewer people wouldn't shop at the bullets. It was very tough. Island Savings Credit Union was located in the ballot developer and center at this time, and they were feeling very uncomfortable. Because they, they felt they were in the middle of this, this battle, and they didn't like it. But understandably, it's very small credit union time. And they decided that they should move, make a move. And so they had a committee of their board and went to different property owners in the village to see where they could get up, get a place to put their branch, they came to me and it was very, really nice meeting and there was about three of them, as I recall. And they were very, very polite. And they sort of skirted the subject. And finally said, you know, we're doing this, but we really have to get a neutral place. And so we really can't be close to more. So I understand, and I know what you're thinking, and I said, we we don't have anything else that we can offer you. And they, they left and we're business a very, very polite and subsequently, I discovered that they were going to go into a building on Phillips Avenue, right where the roasting company is today. They were in space. And the as this thing was being built, a rumor went around that bullets were really behind this building, we secretly were funding the building it so that we can take the credit union Abell card center and put it in take away the candidate. I got a phone call from the developer who's in Duncan, who I've yet to this day to be the phone meeting said what's going on over there? And I said what are you talking about? He said, I had a delegation from Salzburg. People came in and they demanded to see the corporate records. They wanted to know what entrance point he had. He said since I don't I've never seen you. You're supposed to be my partner. I thought I better give you a phone call. And this this, this was the way things were. The place was rumors were ramping and and you shake your head he said what's going on? That led to a lot more interesting things actually. But I'm not gonna go into those at the present time. But there was a regarding the credit union move and so a lot of interesting history on that one. In February at the pollution control board, renders its decision on this appeal that was held back there on the on the new outfall. They allow the outfall to go ahead, but it must be doubled in length to three miles. Rob Peters be happy with that because it went way past his island on the way out to sea. And this put the budget now we're talking last time either 2.4 or five, we're now up to $4,017,000 are the new budget at all also, what they did do which was made very difficult was they left the provision on the permit which we were treated the same level of before and discharge on hematite only. And that cost about half a million dollars for the appetite only provision because we had to put tank engine there was never any justification for that. We just did We did it. And we operated that way for a good long time. And when we did current flow studies that showed there was no benefit whatsoever for that provision. Anyway, on we go. The directors of the CRD visit a Ganges in April 1980. And decide to go ahead with the project project are having a whiff of the the aroma I think the sewer alternatives committee had been formed and and a great many people thought and

Unknown Speaker 24:59
I And I certainly understand that and I disagreed with what I understood their views, but they wanted land disposal. They want to know marine disposal that was appealing at that time of any Reims was was a bad thing. So, the sewer alternatives committee was formed and started to court, a court action challenging the 1978 order of the director of pollution control. One year later, April 81, the sural terms committee wins its case and the order is ruled invalid. So here we are back again. In June of 81, two months later, the CRD decides to proceed under the authority of amended letters patent. But as further assurance insurance, requests a special provincial legislation and confirm that authority, naturally director vallencourt was was very much against this. When this when the special legend provincial legislation came forward, I think it was Bill 31. This was a major escalation in the battle. Because party politics in Victoria was every bit if not more vicious than it is at the present time. And the NDP decided it was the official opposition and decided to step into the issue of demanding democracy for Salzburg. They also seize the opportunity to try and embarrass Hugh Curtis our MLA because they believe he was vulnerable in the upcoming election and certainly vulnerable, but a lot of people who didn't like the sewer and a raucous session of the legislature June 30. MLA, Bob Skelly and Charles barber accused Curtis of flooding in the sewer as a political payoff to his friends and Saltspring. Skelly is asked by the speaker to withdraw the charge and is removed from the house when he fails to do so. Hansard for that very, very interesting reading to the legislation has passed, but demonstrations against the continuing Salzburg in July, the CRD Letsa $1.5 million contract for the submarine outfall. The situation becomes violent when an early August barge loaded plastic outfall pipe was torched in Ganges Harbour. This really, really scared a lot of us. And I think with good reason the atmosphere was was Supercharged. No other way to describe it. Sorry, let's Ramzi as in here today, because he was quite prominent all this. We had less and I had been in Fiddler on the roof with a couple of fervent anti sewer groups. And New York and Danny have an issue. And we've performed together and got along fine. So we decided to pull and I found last night. Yeah, this is scary. This is really getting hot. And I said What What are you saying we get together with Andy and Danny? And see if they'll agree to jointly finding a what's the word reward for finding the person who had done this? And so we met above the drugstore and had quite a long meeting. Dan, Danny, I think like the idea and he didn't. He said, Well, you're just trying to make us look bad. And he said no, no, no. jointly put an article in the paper and say, We disagree fundamentally. We don't agree on sewer but we're against violence. So we're not going to see that happen in the community. They took it back to the SAIC. But the apparently there was agreement there that it was just going to make them look bad, which we could never understand. But unfortunately, it didn't come to pass. We weren't able to do it. I was questioned by the RCMP just in the course of this. They had a team of people over here, very, very worried about what was going to happen. And I when the officer came in and he said it's been suggested to us that you may be responsible for this fire. So I couldn't believe it. So I said well, what are you You'd think he'd said we think it's unlikely. And so they asked me if I knew I said I had no, no idea. He said, Well, there's some very, very scary statements being made around this town. Are you are your building safe? Are you safe? And they certainly aren't. They were very, very vulnerable. Thankfully, we didn't. Thankfully, nothing happened. But it was certainly a nerve wracking period. On July 7 teeth going back, there was legislation. In the legislative debate I mentioned earlier, Charles Barber was MLA Toria, repeatedly referred to me as one of the prominent quote friends of Hugh Curtis, who were being, quote, paid off with the sewer. But Skelly didn't mention, he made a member of a number of wild accusations, including one that I was a partner in northern Toynbee, which I, it's my brother told me Realty. And whether with that with the health and pump in the sewer, we're going to build 250 housing units in Ganges. First of all, not a partner. Secondly, Miller Toynbee didn't own any land and game these bullets had land but not zoned for housing. And I had a 20% interest in what is now the kingfisher. So 20% interest, I think would have accounted for perhaps eight housing units. So I decided that we didn't want to build any housing. So I sold my we sold the property without building anything on it today to build one house on Saltspring. And we live in it. Anyway, I was really infuriated and very frustrated, because Barbara had made his comments in the protection of the legislature. So I phoned him. And I said, you know, do you want to? You want to hear the truth? And he said, Oh, I'm a politician that believes in the truth. And I said, Well, that's good. Come over to Saltspring. And he said, Come over, and I'll bring Skelly. And he did. And we met on the 17th. And my brothers dick and Manson were there. Matson he won't believe it, give them a real time ration. And I had the same meeting Isabelle Goodman, who had been a longtime NDP member and CCF member before that. Isabel Goodman heard that they were coming and she asked if she could come so she came. And I remember this very well. She said, You two boys have eaten in my kitchen. And she said, I know a friend of you hurt us but to you owe him an apology and your time's going to be an apology. You shouldn't be ashamed of yourself. She was a very strong, super supportive actually Isabel was and she told them this was not about party politics. This was a local issue. Barbara agreed that much of the information in his speech was incorrect and promised to publish an apology and retraction. He never did. Skelly said very little, and I learned afterwards why he said little. On August 26, there was a huge protest meeting held in Ganges It was estimated there were 700 there I don't know. I I missed the meeting. Laurie he left here was the emcee. ivaldi was wrote and performed a sewer song and though I like while he's singing I don't think I particularly enjoy that. So I stayed away. And Skelly apparently was buoyed by the crowd and threw caution to the wind and repeats the allegations of political payoff by Curtis. The statement was televised. So it was broadcast everywhere. And Curtis threatened legal action unless an unconditional apology is given. A little while later Skelly delivered one stating that the allegations his allegations were entirely quote, untrue. copies of that were sent to everybody. All the residents of the Gulf Islands

Unknown Speaker 34:59
in In January to the outfall line is completed, but work on the next phase of the project is held up when the bids come in $400,000 over but there's a delay the CRD votes to proceed with Director Belcourt strongly against health officer Dr. O'Neill says the current practice of taking sewage and dumping dumping it on other people's land is not acceptable. He is referring to the trucking, trucking the contents of holding tanks to land disposal sites. This means for those who aren't aware of it that there were, instead of septic tanks that were tanks that you just fill up with sewage and that pumped away and take off to other sites. And add to it was estimated that there was a million gallons pumped out at a cost of $90,000. Between the hospitals and businesses. The school has no problem as the pollution control branch continues to look the other way, while the direct discharge to the beach continues. In the meantime, work on the sewer recedes despite legal actions, and he too now we're 20 years into it. Construction grinds to a halt pending a report to the present status of litigation beyond the trust request to referendum. Trust has no jurisdiction but feels that it could lead to a resolution the CRTC inside CRD decides to undertake referendum. The Pro sewer forces are unhappy, but the opponents are also unhappy, as only the people in the designated area get to both whereas the position of the SABC was that everybody on Saltspring should have a vote regardless of whether they were going to be paying for the sewer or not. The in January the to the referendum continues to be a hot issue. And one director calls an exercise in futility. Quote, you vote yes and you get a sewer. You vote no and you don't get a sewer. But you must pay off $2 million in accumulated debt. So it wasn't a particularly appetizing choice for the people of Ganges who were going to be stuck with the debt. In February of 83, Chris Woodward the inspector of municipalities, puts an end to the discussion when he refuses to approve the holding of a referendum. March of 83 Director Valcourt withdraws from the CRD sewer committee and CRD established as a committee to quote find a harmonious solution with an affordable price tag. Now there's a there's a challenge. At this point, I'm going to introduce this video which we also are you this just to introduce this in mid August of 83, I had a phone call from my producer from The Fifth Estate. And she announced who she was and I said don't tell me you're in your about the sewer. I do and she's How did you know that? I said I just had an uncanny feeling. She said she wanted me to be interviewed by Eric Nalli who had never seen except on TV. And I said what seems like a lose situation to me. I think the way you've gotten this worked out there's going to be the good guys and the bad guys and I'm not on the side of the good guys. She said Well, the problem is if you don't appear there may be nobody to speak on the pro side of this. So I agree will see the video.

Unknown Speaker 39:28
A partially completed system that is costing millions of dollars and may never be completed. The regional government as a province was set on bringing sewers and that they progress the software. But they didn't count on them. stubborn resistance of residents was no part of a pipe dream. British Columbia is indeed God's country. Salt Spring Island is probably where it makes this home. And the 6000 people who live here seem to believe that they are the chosen it's The obvious hideout, anyone can live as a reference here, except for Saturday morning when rich and poor together come out of the woods to crowd into Ganges market. The ability to afford 100 get to jail, and that's too much for the Puritans to bear. Basically, the problem is that they think we can win the people here. Like trying to get through a traffic jam

Unknown Speaker 40:21
or trying to go downtown.

Unknown Speaker 40:24
It's not up to me.

Unknown Speaker 40:28
To stay small here, the uptime rule is welcome, but just birthday. There are already enough your own customers for all the cakes and preserves that the retired ladies of gadgets can turn out in their kitchen. And the place is just right for the holdovers from the people that who showed up here in the 1960s and never left. There's a list of fresh doughnuts in the air health food made with only natural ingredients.

Unknown Speaker 40:57
We've tried it all week, quite fresh egg Demarai sugar, nutmeg flavor.

Unknown Speaker 41:03
Some days the atmosphere is less wholesome. It reeks of raw sewage. The truck pumps most of that from underground holding tank, but some drains into a field in the middle of town or flows directly into the harbor. Troublesome enough but the real trouble didn't begin until authorities in Victoria decided that Ganges would have to grow up and get a real solution treatment system. It divided the island. On one side is that Valcourt Saltspring, member of the regional Municipal Council and Victoria and head of the sewer alternatives committee determined to fight the sewer to the animal. On the other. Tom Toynbee who belongs to one of the oldest and most established families on the island, the moment with our downtown stores and a prime waterfront length. He wants to sewer so the town can grow. Are you the villain is the guy who's fortunately this big expensive sewer that people read owes me questions. Not forcing a big expensive.

Unknown Speaker 42:09
And if I were at the influence that I am supposed to expose a little bit of sewer in place now.

Unknown Speaker 42:19
Will there ever be? I don't know. In Victoria, Dennis, young manager of the Parkland a discipline region that includes Salt Spring Island doesn't know I'm going to tell your grandchildren about the Great Salt Springs sewer sack. And if you ever seen anything like all your years municipal government? No, I don't think I have his unique and I'm I'm happy to believe it is unique. I don't want to see too many of these around the countryside.

Unknown Speaker 42:51
So, yes, I think I can honestly say that.

Unknown Speaker 42:56
Yes, we grant is understandable. He's stuck with $2 million worth of sewer pipe that runs more than two miles out in the Ganges harbor and stopped connected to nothing. It was the first phase of a $5 million project to sewer only 200 long pipes or to delay a treatment plant built here, and the treated effluent pushed out into the ocean through the big pipe. But then along came the sewer alternatives Committee, which for a fraction of the cost wants to keep using proper septic tanks in the outskirts and dispose of downtown storage on the land in what amounts to a big community septic vehicle that can work for Ganges now, but would not allow for the growth that some desire. Others. It began simply enough with a petition. Did the people want to sort the answer six years ago was apparently Yes, two thirds in favor. But when this is out card check the name she found something cited more than once 111 times because he owned 11 blocks. There were other flaws, including at least one forged signature, and the two thirds support completely melted away. But that didn't deter the people and community support headquarters in Victoria. So it's such a furor over the petition that the regional government eventually set it aside and said did an end run by going into the pollution authorities and having them ordered a sewer install? That predictably enough gutting the trouble with the courts? So to get around that the provincial government nevertheless brought in a special law just for tiny damages. It said that the sewer would be built whether it was strictly legal or not. After that, nothing else really much matter. The cost the engineering studies, what the courts or the people here had to say about it was that law that made them really mad.

Unknown Speaker 44:53
The sad one is a de fascists. Yeah, it took away the rights struggle.

Unknown Speaker 45:01
I'm afraid that it's the same type of fear lack of ease. That's a fact the message Gemini Thank

Unknown Speaker 45:08
you maybe sometimes the government has to say enough, squabbling is enough. Let's get over.

Unknown Speaker 45:15
That all they have to do, first of all wish to ask the people that didn't do it could afford it. Because

Unknown Speaker 45:21
when they when they didn't do that, the moment there was a contest about the validity of the petition, the Regional Board abandoned that they publicly abandoned it, but replace it with a symbol or do whatever else I said, Okay, we will not rely on this petition of the basis of our going ahead, but we believe it must be preceded with and therefore we will seek other legal methods. Yes, yes, I guess you're right. But that is what local government has traditionally done in, in Canada, regardless of whether the people being governed wanted to go. Yeah, that's that's the process of local government. Do we have you elect people to make decisions? And if you don't like those decisions, you get them out and put somebody else in? The voters here did that when they put Mrs. Belcourt on the Regional Council, that she's only one voice on it to fight this $5 billion project, or $12,500. For every soul engaging? People aren't worried about much of that money going onto their property taxes. There's the problem of newcomers flocking in and they also question, well, even this Cadillac of sewers wouldn't work. I think fisheries authorities have warned that if sewage is just pushed from the town into the harbor, some kinds of fishing could be affected. Pets Tiernan on the left, and Jeff Edelman are on on the big sore. There's a freeze on new developments in Ganges until the sewer issue was settled, and Edelman can expand his business. But Karen is offended by the plan to put treated sewage into the harbor right on the doorstep of the waterfront retirement homes. In Europe, solar man can do any single thing.

Unknown Speaker 47:36
Sure, alternative people are environmentalist. The idea was this essentially our interest is purely simply and almost unanimously to the group that we object to and marinum for what way to talk about potential growth? I mean, what are you talking about here?

Unknown Speaker 47:59
No, I think I will be the first one to speak against the McDonald's or a Holiday Inn. I'm talking about a community that's growing. I'm talking about I guess what I see as a drawbridge mentality people who feel that they're here they would like to keep things the way they are.

Unknown Speaker 48:16
They don't want arrived in Ganges in the 1960s from New York City. And eventually he turned into an entrepreneur. Its company classic investments owns the gold section on the main street. A woman is so incensed that the anti sewer forces that he charges people 25 cents to use the gas station twice. Classic investments uses the money to pay the man who pumps out the holding tank. Is it true that you can even hire another employee because they're going to start generating more soon I have a building permit application pending right now the for interior partitions the result of which is one additional person working in my building. The application has been accepted by the building inspector and rejected by the health department because you are not allowed to

Unknown Speaker 49:05

Unknown Speaker 49:06
I understand you can't even became put another table in the restaurant because it will generate more exactly

Unknown Speaker 49:11
right. How these people live

Unknown Speaker 49:13
with that. That's one of these ridiculous instances where points have been made to show that this is a whole Sham, they subjection to a sewer. Everyone here is behaving the way they expect in a small town squabble, the businessman and some of the landowners want to get on the building of town. The old folks are nervous about more taxes, and the general folks of the target culture the aging hippies, if you will seem to revel in the costs any cause. What is unusual though parking the high and heavy handedness of the provincial government is the sheer Bulldog tenacity on all sides. Everyone we property seems to have drawers and secret files Women are whispering about leaked documents. they resort to plain and juicy rumors about each other is the similar alternatives committee read a run from the Kremlin. As opposed to the domino theory could apply the Ganges and then Victoria laughter that also that no one takes the Kremlin rumors seriously. But there are other charges that do trouble Andrew Arkin, a local writer, and one of this is not court supporters. legitimate concern that the existing system may cause public health problems, blossomed into wild stories about plagues and Ganges if the $5 million sewer isn't built. Men side microbes behind the school lynching low ladies and kids on the way home, typhoid in the streets, deaths, dropping property values, intrigue and even sabotage, when the load of heavy plastic sewage pipe was torn, the contractor hired decrease to stand guy with a pack of gum. Fire ran, what are you going to do to find out who's who tried to kill your dog? Right, so give him with the French collar moment come with me. Corner our loose yours. In the room here, he's still called the mercenary. He doesn't mind. Because for him this is guerrilla war. As you as fearsome a character and some people around here believe that we do make people afraid and it makes your job easier. And security as they are set up to guard that client. Was there. Was there really a danger there? Were you afraid? No, not at all. Because I've seen this sort of stuff before. So it didn't faze me too much. It was just another job of somebody shot your dog. They might shoot you next fall. Sure. But I had a bulletproof vest for them. And any case, they don't know what I'm going to do that. So they're taking the chance to think of these people who have so much difference on the other side. All I think, three months in boot camp and straighten them out. I think a bit of a bashing about the years. If this goes through, you are the owner of a lot of the land down here. Are you going to put whatever kind of luxury accommodation and make it as one fellow citizen reserved for rich Albert? No.

Unknown Speaker 52:45
I'm certainly not saying we wouldn't undertake some additional development. But the amount of development we can put on our property here in addition to what we now have is very limited

Unknown Speaker 52:55
and referendum was planned. But the provincial government refused to allow. The regional government has backed off and now doesn't want to impose and unwanted sewer. The empty store Council it was defeated last week by a pro seller man. He said it's time to stop fighting. And look at whichever scheme the engineers say works best. Starting from scratch. And so for a while the wagons would keep making its rounds. But have you been Ferris I suspect the feeling of many people out there is whatever they say when one of their battles against city hall you were the provincial government just turns around and changes the rules. Didn't give them a chance to win? Yeah, I think there is perhaps where a very serious error was made in which I think that, like the council's all over the country should learn from this process that there's got to be consultation with the community, not necessarily to do what they want because they may not be capable of determining what they want, but at least bringing them into the picture. So they understand the issues and are given an opportunity to say yes, we want you to proceed or we'd like you to consider even further alternatives. If people are judged to be capable of deciding what they want. Where does that leave democracy I don't think the democratic processes in any great danger of collapse and the result of this perhaps being strengthened as a result of it.

Unknown Speaker 54:40
Many women are smoking more than ever before.

Unknown Speaker 54:49
Quality I didn't think it was that bad but certainly I wasn't able to see you heard it anyway. You saw it Some images there and it was nice to be young movement. I think I thought that that's a great way of really showing you what things were like at that time and those who were involved in your fold be reminded of the if I looked apprehensive and there was a because I wasn't happy so I never met malling before. Unfortunately, as many of you may know, died too young. But I'd never met him before he came in and gave me some really easy questions. And as I was getting very feeling very comfortable, he leaned forward to me and said, Come on, Mr. Toynbee admitted, you're getting a political payoff from new Curtis. That's what it's all about. I didn't know whether what he what he would do. He never used. You saw. And we have a little bit of an interesting thing. My wife was very skeptical about how this will turn out. Yvonne was quite sure that this wouldn't be terrible. But something happened that made me feel not too worried about it, because the day that they did the show, and did the filming. At the end of it. He said to me, he understood the federal fisheries was against what we're objecting to the outfall, and I said, No, it's not true. I have a letter from them, which they've sent out to the CRV saying that they are happy with the new outfall location. He's all that sent my information. I said, Can you can you produce the letter and I said, we'll get to the letter. And he saw I'm in a hurry. Would you mind dropping it off at the harbor close. So in the afternoon, we went on I went by the harbor, so it was very hot day. So we decided to have a tall drink. And we walked in and he saw us walking in the door and he walked over very, very politely. I handed them a letter. And he said Mr. Toynbee, so I don't want to offend you. He said, I really liked your store and everything. But we're having a hard time making you look like a big time developer. I knew at this moment that things weren't going exactly the way that I was in mind when she came. She was gonna be big developers versus little guys. And interestingly, there's a sequel to this I got to know Eric, quite well. And I always got a couple one Well, was there any open issues on the other side? And I found out just how this whole thing had come to pass white and the federal state come to Salzburg. Here's a letter from Eric a to Eric from Danny ammunition, who had gone with the school with him every Saskatchewan that know it. Hey, Eric, I think anybody's interested in this story. It's got erosion of human and civil rights possible unconstitutional legislation from one of the loudest constitution critics, a barge full of sewer pipe on fire a public meeting with over 10% of the island in attendance, starting Laurier lab here and baldy and an amazing cast of government fools. We're trying to publicize this incredible situation, and to get people to write to Ben and giving him hell or expressing concern or just asking Maureen for more information. Following that, Eric submitted it to his executive producer guest and this is a letter to Eric Malik a little note to Eric Malley three the Saltspring sewer. This might be an item for the local TV station, but I can see the Fifth Estate, spending time and money to protect Valley Laurie Lapierre and others from having a sewer installed on their property. It seems to me there are more than government fools on Saltspring should I respond or weld? Or will you too, Mr. Danny, I can't decipher his last name. When Eric moved, he left CBC and went to CTV went from the fifth to the 25. So a number of years later, he was cleaning out his files, and he sent this Tom Danny. I came across this the other day cleaning out my file. You should both have the 50 states historical record. The notice from the executive producer he was probably right. But you see where obsession to get That's me. So that was the making the making of the film and doing just about over

Unknown Speaker 1:00:37
as I mentioned at the end of that video, you barzmann was won the election was a very hard fought election in November of 83. And he defeated the 14 113 votes to 1271. His position was Ganges must have a sewer. The method of treatment and method of disposal land and marine has opened the debate. In 84 horsemen's says animosity seems to have disappeared. That was a bit of an overstatement solution should come this year. The balance of 84 barzmann forms a committee with membership for both the Pro and anti side pro side and the LSAC. Many meetings are held and they held him at the nurse's residence was a particularly good spot to hold him this was at the back of the hospital. When the window open, you got the whiff of the sewage constantly coming in. And it just reminded everybody what we were there for a little creek that ran by raw sewage it's a perfect spot for the job. Late in late 84 The committee reached an impasse over where to discharge land or sea oarsmen manages to get the pro forces to agreed having the CRD Fund, which CRD means Ganges sewer Ganges residents fund an engineering study to determine the feasibility of land disposal and to allow the sewer alternatives committee to select the engineering firm to be retained. A contract has led for the engineering firm but after a short period, the firm files an interim report saying that while it might be possible to find a suitable land disposal site, soil characteristics generally are not too good. As Ganges already has a three mile marine outfall and permit, it would seem to make sense to use it. Which was not good news to members of the SABC at the time because it was their engineer came through the report. And York can be signed on there was was was very much a hard liner immediately quit committee. But there was a general consensus among the remaining members that the system should be built as designed. In January the five with the path now reasonably clear, pending further legal action, work can continue. But with inflation, the cost of more and more studies and very hefty legal fees all charged to the facility. The cost is now deemed to be too high for the users to afford. Then the break through February 11. At five the provincial government tells the CRD it will make a special grant of almost 800,000 at subsidized rates in the early years. The rationale is that the schools and the hospitals are the major polluters, and the cost and operating cost of on site systems for these facilities would be high and certainly not trouble free. Better to endow the community system and get it operation. It's interesting that we only just use the interest on that money. Buy on that fund that the fund itself was used to pay for the recently completed major plant upgrade. Things then move rapidly to the end in February of 85. The CRV votes to go ahead without delay. The average rent residential user charged is estimated at $300 a year last year 2000 That was $385 and the new budget is 4.8 million in June of 85 One last legal challenge to individuals mount a charter challenge. But the court rules for the CRD and an early 86 the treatment plan starts up and the individual problem Nice start to connect. Quickly on reflection, I'm happy that we finally did get a sanitary sewer system. We did have a major health risk and the community smelled. The Community Plan vision of a compact village including commercial residential health, education and cultural and recreational facilities couldn't have been done without a sewer. Planning by percolation is what was taking place and would have inevitably led to a hodgepodge of strip development. Because you'd go anywhere where you could actually create a dream drainage field as opposed to where a village might be. I'm also happy that we didn't try the land disposal. Generally our climate is such that for at least six months a year, the land couldn't absorb the water. Ironically, we may yet get to land disposal or more accurately we use during the dry season as our treatment plant is producing effluent of such a high quality that it can be used for irrigation, spray irrigation. Number three, we can also take satisfaction of the fact that contrary to the peers of many, the Marine discharged a rebel and that not polluting the receiving waters. In fact, testing by the CRD in the Environment Canada shows a marked decline in bacterial contamination in the harbor, particularly at the beaches with the elimination of direct and indirect sewage discharges which were in place before. If we had to do it over again, what would we do right from the beginning the outfall line should have been longer, the present location is very satisfactory with sufficient depth and good tidal flow. Even if our provides reasonable level of treatment and the tide pumping, which I mentioned before if it had been reduced, this could have been remedied and subsequent upgrades. The point is the longer outfall provided a safety valve in case of plan failure, which think thankfully hasn't happened. Number two, even though I think it would have been desirable to have Ganges Hill on the system, and that's the area that was left out. I wish it had been left out of the 1977 petition. And the petition been limited to phase one, which is what was eventually constructed, it would have passed handily, and we would avoid the bitter division that resulted from the special legislation in 81. And number three, the CRD and the pro sewer forces should have made a greater effort to develop a dialogue with the many reasonable people who for one reason or another, were opposed to the sewer. There was so much conflicting information being presented through the younger years that many quite understandably didn't know what to believe. We owe a great deal to now departed you horsemen for his efforts to foster dialogue to bad it couldn't have happened earlier. And now, the situation now. 20 Good God, how many years is 40 years since the start of this whole thing. 15 years into operation. The plant has been in operation 15 years. It's consistently meeting shellfish standard woods are the highest standards available but the point about fall we have the growth of residences, schools, businesses and daily the bay flow is now about 60% More than in the early years. And I should point out that we now have a new facility which will be going online very shortly to pump out holding tanks for boats and Ganges Harbour. Something we wanted for years that means the sewer will be treated that and people of anchor in the harbor will have will be able to discharge their tanks to shore something that's going to further help the harbor with our new membrane reactor which I urge you all to go and see plant operator will be happy to give tours. We are currently producing these kinds of results like this listen to these. This is done the March the second test suspended solids in the effluent. Our permit requires that it be below 25 milligrams per liter. The actual is less than one. biochemical oxygen present demand or VOD is 25 milligrams per liter. It's less than five per liter. To test it. fecal coliforms are allowed 1400 milliliters. The test showed less than one after all Have a vial of testing that's less than one. Also, the effluent is not as to be non toxic defects or code have to live in them for 96 hours. 96 hours tested for that purpose. On the same day, the creek besides the treatment plan was tested for people called the forums. And it showed 900

Unknown Speaker 1:10:28
milliliters which is every so much better than it was in the old good old days. Because it regularly showed 1000 to 5000 before the sewer was show nine on March 2. Less Ramsey made a very effective presentation. And Victoria. I don't know any of you were there. Like some of you probably were. When we were going in and asking the CRV to get onto the sewer and less went forward with a bottle of effluent taken up from behind the drugstore, bang down on the chairman's desk, right in the middle of the meeting. And Peter Collins, who was Mirror Victorian times. So that's the most disgusting, disgusting thing I've ever seen and gave him a fairly hard time it was very effective. It really was. I can't I can't match that. I can't match it. But I'm going to show you a couple of vials of f on there. That I think you'll see in the general color. That is what is in the treatment in the tank with his with the bio reactor that we have biological treatment of the sewage. That's what it looks like in the tank. There's the effluent I don't think I don't think you'll find any drinking water on the island looking anyplace. Now, all we have to do is find a way to use this water in the summertime, there's about 120,000 gallons and we will actually get maybe bring the thing full circle and at least for part of the year. We couldn't have planned reuse of publicity. That's it. Thank you.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:45
Tell us something about what went on with people petitioning who were in the downtown before petitioning to be outside the district. Why was that allowed? And what was the process?

Unknown Speaker 1:13:04
Maybe I didn't maybe I didn't explain that properly. The petition was to be actually to be included in the district.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:15
I'm talking about Well, I

Unknown Speaker 1:13:16
really don't know who I am.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:20
I had to petition

Unknown Speaker 1:13:23
to stay out.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:26
Because the previous owner can petition to the outside.

Unknown Speaker 1:13:31
Yeah, what what happened? This I think I know exactly. Now you're right in the Swanson. Monder enhancement. What what happened there where it was a decision made by the CRD rather than force people to talk out even though they live in this rural area that they could stay off the sewer if they wish to. And so and some people did, so there were little

Unknown Speaker 1:14:07
locks, like yours. left

Unknown Speaker 1:14:11
in the middle of it was it was really a political decision because there's been so much unpleasantness and people were saying we don't want to be hooked up we have a perfectly functioning septic field, which in many cases wasn't really the truth and you are aware and we can afford it and so on. The truth is that it was very much more cost effective to get on the sooner than later that's what that's why it happened. Thank you for expediting into the sewer system well feel well that there were so many problems and and the orphans statement there, you know, but little old ladies being lynched. by Microsoft. I mean, I gotta tell you this was one day I had a bad experience. maddening when the plumbing inspector came to want to inspect every connection to the sewer. So all the properties within the area had to be connected. We had a number of buildings to go on, so he would come and inspect it. So I met him at the restaurant, and I said, we're going to be ready for two inspections. So when can you going to do that so we can cover cover it up? Lancer con contract, he was doing the work for us. And we arranged it and he said, I've just been up at the hospital. He said, That's the little disgusting thing I've ever seen in my life. You peoples should have done something about talking to the wrong guy. The authorities wouldn't do anything. They simply wouldn't do anything in terms of the school in the hospital at the time and a decent role played down wasn't a big issue. But quite frankly, you know, you've had animals and birds settling in this effluent. We had right through the village. The there's adults in the in the reservoir here the driftwood that the people from the water district in the water read the meters in downtown Ganges the high water periods. They were the reason water meters. Well, you know anybody who pretended that that wasn't a health issue.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:45
Yeah, go ahead and

Unknown Speaker 1:16:46
find this person.

Unknown Speaker 1:16:50
If they did, I'd never heard about it. The only thing I do remember when the Squamish five were arrested. When they're arrested, they found them with a great deal of him. A lot of stories, a lot of newspaper articles about different environmental issues, some of them quite small. And so when I heard this, I phoned up the police inspector who was in Victoria who had been over and talked to me. And I said, What about the Squamish? Five? He said, No, we're ahead of you. He said, we thought right away, they might have been involved, but they said they were wiretap for months. And they talked about everything on the telephone. They never ever talked about Ganges. They said they knew nothing. But it was sort of similar somewhere. No, I have no idea that the Mounties told me one day we'll find out who it is but we'll never be able to prove it

Unknown Speaker 1:18:04
any more comments or questions? Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 1:18:08
yeah, I took a look at my files to see if I can find anything on that but I did find some stuff about that Coca

Unknown Speaker 1:18:15
Cola filtration

Unknown Speaker 1:18:17
and if anyone wants to look at it and understand it says at that particular time they were setting up such a treatment

Unknown Speaker 1:18:30
no but there's a good story that goes with that. We heard that they were going to do that and so we got in touch with the forgotten what anybody was with other CRD director but somebody on a committee over there and then they got very excited about it and as a matter of fact that qualifier was a cold hard was here and it was a Chinese doctor also came here to remember that. Yeah. And the we heard Bolin I was all get the game and going for this and land disposal. So we found over and it's a boy and he laughed and he said, Oh, he said they made a big mistake. He said they asked us to go and see the demonstration plan. And they went out to it. It was an avatar in the Fraser Valley. And when they got there, it was it was a winter and the the f1 wasn't going through a cold call it was pouring out all over the sides and completely failed. And nobody had sort of checked to see whether it was operating or not before suggesting they go out and see it he said so after one look at that. And then we're gonna they're not interested in that was the end of it. I hope there's no coal plant going anywhere. To my knowledge never remember the idea of this coal coal is supposed to contain magic property but nobody has the understanding of what they were other than it's a method of a medium for growing bacteria on it couldn't be coal or rocks or something of this nature you trickle the sewage over and then treat it that way yeah I'm glad we didn't go with coal

Unknown Speaker 1:20:35
the opposing forces ever say gosh, we're really sorry

Unknown Speaker 1:20:47
but to be fair, there was some of the some of the some of the people on the other side we're particularly rough we're we're very dedicated and new some as far as I'm concerned some some tactics which were a little bit below but on the other hand, there were people who were just disagree that that was better, but like I got along very well. With those now a number of people who are very much against it have left have left. Know I, but I really have never heard anybody say that. That's why I was sort of hoping a couple of people here not to say that but just to give their points of view. I did ask. I did ask. Personally. The people are pretty effective on the other side, were very tough out of this. And very resourceful, and admire. When you look at the mill, there's probably a million dollars in there was one man or another it was all the time. But they said all the CRD did a lot of things wrong and we didn't stop them from doing it as Dennis. Eric said, every time they went a point you do something and then this really made people pause that well we won this lawsuit and then the CRV was given the award go ahead and launch today iPhone Frank neighs American IMO. I don't want this to be done in the course of this, and that's what the question was to do with petitions and I'll tell you who the person was who signed 11 times Iowa and up because we're told that the reading of the municipal acts I do have a one signature per block of June we have 11 laws. So everybody that voted twice to subsequently a little bit later decided that that wasn't valid petitions. This got one vote but it wasn't at that time. So I found my boyfriend Hey, I love this particular subject. He's a great character and I knew him but he's dressed up as a pirate you know for the bathtub races and swashbuckling American. So I talked to him about how is that silver going down guys? Oh my God. He said don't worry stick to it. So one day they'll build a statue I don't really want to be remembered

Unknown Speaker 1:24:10
Yeah, I think it was Napoleon who said the history of the fabled agreed upon by the fact that the folks on here today I would suspect that's right. So maybe the history happened for another couple of years.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:28
But it's it's been I was when I went back to research this. I just couldn't even remember a great deal of the number of different moves and there's a number of CRD that will almost totally occupied with games. And it says Republic week of the week, the letters to the editor. Half of them does not write every week Half of them are in service, and month after month, year after year. And the funny part of it is this was one of the things Alec Houston, I think will remember because he was on the implementation committee. And we, and he sat those meetings up at the nurse's residence was the sewage pulling back.

Unknown Speaker 1:25:36
What was the point of something we did?

Unknown Speaker 1:25:50
The the fundamental when the Oh yeah, when the the tour alters that, you've got to have tests done immediately on our permit, oh, Paul permanent called for tests to be done. Very regularly, a lot of tests. Matter of fact, we were spending $36,000 a year, up until recently to do tests on the harbor, where zero contamination comes on top as part of the permit exercise. So there is an excise on the taxpayer money was Friday that we don't do any tests up there now, because we're putting up well, you see what we're putting out see it better than any water flowing. And so that's been saved. But and when we first put the sewer in the SADC demanded the test results the published so we started publishing. Not one comment. Not one complaint ever was raised, and there didn't seem to be any influence whatsoever. And then because they're always consistently good.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:17
Just don't run for mayor.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:25
I think you can say, as Dennis Yang said, like, the thing that is unique, and I think you're gonna say that you can pretty well be sure of themselves. To be plenty of controversy, whether we have local government or not. Weather would be better that I'm closer to the people I don't know, I'm I'd ask others to talk

Unknown Speaker 1:27:58
in the pollution control branch ever explain what why they had such a disinterest in oil? And then?

Unknown Speaker 1:28:05
No, I just put up a little bit closer. And it was so cool alternative.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:13
If they don't want to get on a sewer system.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:18
The hospital did that the school board. And there was some people on the school board who were foreign and others who who were against. And I remember writing a personal letter between the board and saying I just felt that it was irresponsible not to take a stand and recognize they had a problem and they came back with something. We're interested in education problem, which I thought was a lousy answer. You remember that Bob? In those days? anymore?

Unknown Speaker 1:29:03
Expectation similar.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:09
Not in not that I know of

Unknown Speaker 1:29:14
variations on the edge that set us yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:19
Yes, yeah, there certainly are. The way the process works now. People can petition with John and come in to the sewer and essentially have been

Unknown Speaker 1:29:35
relocated to places that have a problem, existing problem or can't build because we have a zoning that's been given by the trust but they require the sewer actually the development for example, but we are adding to it we will be adding to it when the new

Unknown Speaker 1:29:51
seniors housing building and

Unknown Speaker 1:29:55
it's been a pretty orderly process. We certainly there was You're gonna run sewer lines everywhere, which we wouldn't have made any sense of fall. But we've been very, very careful about and that people can petition and asked to be included in the area but then they have to pay the cost of goods can be quite large

Unknown Speaker 1:30:29
on behalf of the audience here, I would like to thank you very much for a most enjoyable afternoon in person. It was full of humor and a full of facts. And I'm sure that it's something that the archives will have that tape making there and we will be very happy. Thank you very much.