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John Lutz

John Lutz discusses the relations of the ordinary seamen with aboriginal women.

Accession Number Interviewer SSI Historical Society Address
Date May 9, 2000 Location Central Hall
Media tape Audio CD mp3
ID 180 Duration 47 min.




Unknown Speaker 0:10
society is married said I have sort of a half built home here on Saltspring. And I'm a Saltspring want to be like about half of Canada is

Unknown Speaker 0:19
one day, hopefully, I'll be here more permanently. I wanted to talk today about well, let me tell you how I got sort of drawn into this subject as far as

Unknown Speaker 0:35
I study, Aboriginal non Aboriginal relations contact between the people and white people in Northwest coast. And as I was reading through the exploration accounts of explorers, I would occasionally come across not not often very explicitly, but sort of hints that sexual relationships have developed between sailors and Aboriginal women. And after a while, I should have accumulated a couple of these references, I thought this would be kind of fun topic, you don't need one. After all, you might, you know, some aspects of history are hard to get people interested in. But you can always do that people in sex. So I kind of started off on this quite honestly, in a more kind of on a lighter vein. But the more I got into this project, the more I realized that there's something very important been left out of the history of exploration of contact and hope to persuade you today that not only is that this sort of history, you know, I guess it has its sort of livelier and more titillating moments, and perhaps some history, and I have to warn you some of the content is for mature audiences only. But also, I hope, it's, it's made me we think, I think part of it needs to be a contact. And maybe it will do the same for you, I'm not sure. So stories of exploration, you know, fascinated people for, you know, well ever since European civilization has started to write the first great works in European canon are Homer's Iliad and the Odyssey and stories of travel and exploration. And I'm not sure I'll convince you of this, but I've become convinced that there's a subliminal sexual content and most of this travel and exploration trips, leave that with you. I'm not going to try and get into that today. But but some of the language of exploration, I think, suggests we think about how we describe exploration, we talked about unveiling we talked about, you know, penetrating virgin lands. And when you think about the kind of language you use to describe exploration, you can sort of see that, you know, maybe somewhere in the back, there's this sort of sublimated sexuality, and in some cases that's brought right to the surface. So let me give you an example. This is Sir Walter Raleigh, describing discovery of British Ghana. Well, he's his first encounter, he says, Well, he describes it as a country that had yet her maiden hit. And then a contemporary of his says, British Ghana, again, which prostates itself before us, like a fair and beautiful woman. So in some cases, this sort of is sort of sexual metaphors, maybe more exclusive. And in other cases, it's kind of reversed and people, poets in the past have used exploration as itself as a metaphor for sexual exploration. So here's a just a brief paragraph from a poem from John Donne, if you could call to my beloved isn't licensed my roving hands and let them go behind before above, between yellow Oh, America, my newfound land, My kingdom Safelist, when with one man, my mind and precious stones, my inquiry, how blessed I am, in this. So here's sort of explorations are a metaphor, sort of just dressed up as sort of disguise sort of sexual abuse. So what I'd like to do today is try and convince you then that, that there's something more than just sort of sailors assigned to this. sexuality in the Pacific Northwest and the focus unit pacifically, particularly on the northwest coast here in the period of the late 18th century, bringing the focus so this is the era of Captain James Cook and George Vancouver, the first exploration of actually this area here about Europeans. And when we think about histories of exploration, I wouldn't be surprised if people in the room you're interested in history have read many years, some of these accounts of explorers or at least histories of BC, and we read about, we read about Caprica, we read it about Captain Vancouver. And we sometimes read about the motivations for these voyages and the motivations are our colonialism, profit capitalism, Christianity, in some cases, especially Spaniards were interested in proselytizing science in the 18th century. This is the era of the Enlightenment. So science is a big push behind that condition. These are all the official motivations for the voyage and these motivate, you know, the backers, the parliamentarians that kings and queens, finance these, some extent they motivate the captains like cooked in Vancouver and are vegan begging The Quadra Galleon without all the other explorers. The the captains themselves also had this self interest in the sense that the more they discovered a better job, they would publicize. And you can work being as they become the more glory that you know, the more recognition they gain. That, you know, the captain was only one man on a ship that might have had 100 men on the ship. There's somewhere between 50 and 100. Ships, typically. And none have very little restrictions, and none but almost none of the history talks about the majority that people in these explorations what what motivated them what was going on in their mind was one of many variants. So in part, this is a bit of social history, I guess, looking at exploration from the lower decks from the folks on the gun decks, if you like, rather from the quarterback the officers did. And in part, I think we understand a little bit more of a sexual nature of this exploration, we see how that interacts with and in some sense contradicts the official motivations of Christianity, data science, profit, in some cases, me the sexual motivation, and I'm going to use this abbreviation. And we'll talk about sexual motivation for explorations on an eBay that is, sex coloration seems to go nicely. So it's exploration, sometimes it's exploration contravenes the more official agendas, and sometimes it actually reinforces it, but one has to understand that separation understand that these things. So it's all on the face of it, it should be surprising if sex and sailors in the Pacific Northwest don't go together because we know that sex and sailors have this reputation going back centuries and notorious connection between sailor and their activities in court. And and we know that most of the sailors were young man and those who entered the Pacific with the British voyages of exploration, 85% of them were on 21 80% of them were a single. These were, you know, young men are separated from their families in their homes and Female Society for often years at a time. So, I suppose we shouldn't be surprised that they had an interest in sexual relations moving into other ports. And let me read you a couple of comments from some British animals which sort of lay out the character of these, these these men. Here we have 1602 This is a little bit before my era, but kind of sets the stage, I guess, establishes the historic precedents of this. Vice Admiral William Monson investments true before ashore, he says, certain it is that neither birds nor horse can show a more extravagant lewdness, more dissolute wildness and less fear of God than your carriage discovers when you come ashore, cast off the command of your superior officers. In 1760s, British need captain and we were told of our sailors that we spent most of their money to pay on quoting again from him on dirty horrors and sneaking in June. But perhaps the most vivid description of a central Lakeland sailors and this is this is a say tender sensibilities, you should plug your ears for this quote. This is 1822 and Admiral Hawkins is, is describing what happens when a British man of war enters the port of Liverpool. And remember many of these men or press games, they're not willing volunteers on their ships, and they don't let them ashore when the ship comes in before they keep them on the ship. And in order to keep them in, I guess, under control or mollify that whatever. Well, you'll see what happens. It's extended quote. It's well known that immediately on the arrival of a ship of war and toward crowds of boats fought off of cargoes and prostitutes. The man then go into the boats and pick out each a woman and and your children are tuned to the boatman for passage. The women then descend to the lower deck with their husbands as they call hundreds come off to a large ship. The whole of the shocking disgraceful, disgraceful transactions of the lower deck is impossible to describe the dirt the filthy stench and disgusting conversation, the indecent, indecent beastly conduct, and horrible scenes, the blasphemy, the swearing, the riots, quarrels and fighting, which often takes place where hundreds of men and women are huddled together in one room as it were, and were in bed. Each man being allowed only 14 inches of breath for his hammock, they are squeezed between the next hammocks and must be witnesses to each other's actions.

Unknown Speaker 10:27
So he's describing the scene and this is actually a tract as part of a track to clean this cactus up so it goes into sort of detail you can he goes on it yet another picture yeah. Those who have never seen a ship of war picture to themselves a very large low room. So picture kind of this room with about us, you know, five and a half foot ceiling kind of going way back. With 500 men and probably three or 400 Women of the violence description, shot off and and giving away to every excess of debauchery that the grossest passions of human nature can lead them to, and you will see the lower deck of a 74 gunship than an eye for arrival for incident this is an aside but since these sexual liaisons took place basically on the Ganga and men says were given corking space to hang their hammocks basically between the guns essential activities happened around on the under the guns and this is the derivation of the expression son of a gun a son of a gun was a word for bastard basically continue under these circumstances. So that's that's where that expression comes from a bathroom with a sort of salty taste to them or something like that. So you know, this this both of these accounts are late or these accounts are kind of span I guess, the 17th century you get the flavor of like the characters, the sexual relations and for it, so it should be no surprise when they leave Britain and go on voyages of exploration that we might encounter a sexual activity. Now, think about think about the length of these men you know that they're away from home for three or four years is the typical voyage of explosions minutes two years. Vancouver's five years longer they you know what, what did they have to look forward to on these voyages one attendee in return as a result of his use of violence over this portion of some one quarter of the men on using for example Vancouver cook ship were flogged on their journeys one quarter because of the lower rings what was the chances more than

Unknown Speaker 12:47
so you know, harsh discipline, cramped quarters damp and never warm you never accepting like coming into the Midwest, you never warm everything is damp, but food is horrible beyond description, practically. The only solace in that kind of life was the daily rom ration not bad. In fact, they were paid well compared to say a farmhand. But it's early quote suggested that we can spend with a wife and say and, and I would argue that one of especially after the French and British man falls one of the incentives he's one of the things that didn't have to look forward to was sexual relationships with a foreign and in this case, exotic cific. So clicks voyages are well known Captain Cooks wages for setting off your exploration science. But what's less discussed is cook is actually makes a second landfall

Unknown Speaker 13:54
who can do it? Authority which he guess identifies their takes back from Nina case between them, two of them, their accounts of Tahiti

Unknown Speaker 14:11
turning the Pacific Northwest into a sort of a place of science, but also I think, a landscape of desire where sailors I'm sure when you can sign on for these horrible voyages because of sexual tourism. That's not what I'm trying to argue but having the sort of enforced or oppressing the ships. One way of saving the Pacific this would be the topic of conversation to ship and as I look forward to and to give you some idea of what cook and Bougainville and others found, here's a description from Cook's voyage his surgeons meet with me will come up a couple of times, sound waves and certainly he talked about young woman in in his estimation where exceeding a beautiful and the swarm looks to ships and offer themselves freely to the sailors. And I'm going to show a couple of overheads here, I guess this is the start of my multimedia presentation.

Unknown Speaker 15:19
See, first of all, back to my characterization of the sailor as

Unknown Speaker 15:32
these are 218 34, it's a matching pair. You can't read the text, but the text says the signal foreign engagement and on your map, I guess, the subtext is at home and abroad. It's the sort of a signal for engagement force using nautical terms for coming into battle, I guess basically holding a person coins at home and trigger the ball but in this case, a watch abroad. Here's a CEO get the date to 1788 painting of the scene of Cook's arrival in Tahiti, there was that focused raise a little bit

Unknown Speaker 16:25
not much I can do without giving the feedback. But basically, here you see the TV show women diving off their boats, they look at you look like British boats, and swimming to the ships. And the man offering this case a mirror and various other things that thing. In point of fact. Iron was in great demand in Tahiti and metal objects. And so the man traded away first of all kind of trade routes, they had hatches and bases and bought along. When they ran out of things to trade, they started pulling meals out of the ship. And they basically were disassemble the ship if they had to run the credit card Marshal for for this activity. Just again, to give you the flavor of the sort of these kinds of relationships in the Pacific. This is from a French voyage in 79. He's lap Rousses voyage, he stops at Easter Island. And here you see the French sailors kind of scattered around some of the famous monuments and Easter Island, someone's sketching them. And around them are these mostly naked and it's half naked? Islanders. If you take a closer look at his feet, he's finished by a clever painting actually, in some sense, it's slightly closer look, with just about every one of these sailors. There's something like this happening. He's talking to this commonly made in here and this one here is kind of pulling something out of his pocket or out of his women are both sort of enticing and filtering things. The sailors who are greedy in several respects. So I would argue that these stories from the mid 18th century start to spread through the seafaring world and the attraction of women. Sexual availability women becomes part of sort of motivations of the sailors, not the officers, not captains, but the men on the ships. So when it comes to the Pacific Northwest what we have more evidence and evidence is the kind of hard hardest thing combines story because we click stop that to hear you the first time. He came back and deposit in his journals and his journal was written up for the publications by a man called hawks worth and it's Hawksworth ox Berean. Sure, but in any case, the editor of the journals was relatively frankly, it can't be sexual encounters of that happening. Apparently Joseph Banks was the naturalist was talking to Ed, I had an engagement with one of the Hawaii royalty females in the world came back to the ship one day Lotus pants. This ends up being satirized and pretty impressive book and banks were mercilessly satirized by the British press. So, after that comes clear if you're a captain of especially official exploration, but even not for me this time. So it gets harder and harder to know, you know, to see the evidence but the place to look for evidence is not so much in the Austin logs but often in their subalterns in the logs of some of the people like the surgeons I mentioned before, or occasionally. Most of the seamen were illiterate, but a few of them were literate and some of the council So when cook comes to the Pacific, he stops in Hawaii and he makes his way up to the Pacific Northwest from Hawaii. And he arrives at friendly coals. And their experience there at first is quite quite dissimilar from why the women club describes them as bashful and modest. And the men at first have no sleep to come on board the ship. Sailors did not let this dissuade them at all. They kept assisting and offering goods and cash for essential services. And Sam Well, the same search as me account leaves us this accountant says, after having been there some time, and despite having often given the need of men to understand how agreeable a company of their women would be to us and how profitable to themselves, to quote my paraphrasing, they had no luck. But on April 6, they've been there as tourists and weeks. However, some alrights two or three girls were thought of the use of the word thorough and apparently forced. By the main buchu award, Sam or similar remarks in their sexual behavior, they were very modest and timid, which they differed much in the South Sea Island girls who in general are imputed loud. And he describes he described in his notes as probably the first sexual encounter between Aboriginal non Aboriginal people of Northwest he says, quoting those some of them had no bad faces yet, as they were exceedingly dirty about the person was at first sight. And we're not very inviting, however, a young gentleman were not to be discouraged by such an offensive those days, which they found was to be removed with soap and warm water. This they call the ceremony of purification and were themselves the officiant. And it must be mentioned that they performed as much piety and devotion taking as much pleasure in cleaning, cleaning naked young woman from all impurities in the tub of warm water as a young confessor would be to us all absorbed, beautiful virgin was about to sacrifice you know, there's a bit of marquee this ad if you can, that meta description actually. And some of these accounts become disturbing on this one. works. Its current these women were forced, they were slaves. They were brought on board by their owners sold essential services were sold to the sailors SAML notes that after a dispersed encounter, the owner sounds a profitable trade brought more women to the ship. And that that the ordinary price for this was they'd already traded away most of the metal so they traded pewter plates to exclude one pewter plate for one night, sexual accompaniment. And Sam will notice that many of us leaving this harbor were not able to muster a place to eat our salt and beef from they traded away all of their cutlery and their plates. So this is 1778 Vancouver revisits the same port from the COVID 72 And first of all he shifts I don't have the time they stop

Unknown Speaker 23:48
in Georgia and work their way up around the north you guys and maybe this is a time I guess I got some slides to show this

Unknown Speaker 24:12
so who arrives in 79 to two quite a different reception from that which

Unknown Speaker 24:28
let's have a look.

Unknown Speaker 24:37
Maybe I'm late to the good job on the show four or five. Okay, so Catherine James, speaking out in the Big Apple theater. And this is going back a little bit. This is a painting from We change leverage when it comes to artists on arriving in Hawaii and this is why women on the one side are coming for ships and hogs on the other side fresh meats particularly things that the sailors really want to finish here's a sideways direction beauty this rubber painting emerging with the issue of tentacles and then here we are kinda cold storage and this is characterize the height of uni if you like something quite different from this as a Dixon painting. Contrast this client at the sales, compare the contrast of the Udo when compared to favor

Unknown Speaker 26:10
associates was the winner

Unknown Speaker 26:20
you find the officers that you're accountable to down, tie that into exploration Swat, so to speak.

Unknown Speaker 26:42
So Vancouver visits is extremely cold. When different clubs and cook arrive, Aboriginal people greeted him with a ceremonial reading they had loved to meet him, they extrude equal down to find his boats. Cook writes about this in considerable detail. And when Vancouver arrives, this is 79 to 14 years later. Upon entering the sound when we're visited by many canoes, people which approach the odd ceremony, they laughed hard in the past, they're joke's on us with great freedom, and gave us to understand that for iron, we might have their women explaining their meanings by many of these actions. So in the course of a few years, in fact, this even happens before, but halfway through at least by halfway through this period, but other accounts, Aboriginal people on the northwest coast not just a friendly cold, again, to realize that whatever they were Spanish British, whether they were official expeditions or whether they were merchants in a car, or whatever, they all have one thing in common. They all wanted Aboriginal women. And so you can see that so that the official greeting now give it away to basically, you know, almost from our point of view that would describe it. So the next one on board before anything else. The I think all we have really are European sources for this except for one account, which I did a few minutes on Aboriginal history. So it's pretty hard talking about the Aboriginal women on Aboriginal society, I think it seems clear from ethnographic and other work. That's some of these fairly women involved in this paper are basically forced slaves, slaves, slaves, and other parts of the coast and another at times and even a kind of cold in a later period, you become peeking out to get it just becomes evident that something else is going on if women were acting on their own behalf on slave women, and, and I think here no one has to understand more about Aboriginal culture and Aboriginal customs and mores before one can really describe this as prostituted in our culture. But I think in some aboriginal cultures, including the Klingon and the Haida. Some Aboriginal women were considered to have special spiritual power special pass on commands and sexual relations and so there was already a tradition of giving gifts to the human in exchange for a sexual relationship, sexual encounters. And so those customers in those cultures immediate very specifically and very some cultural problems. Those kind of relationships could be considered almost honoring somebody the idea of you might want to have sexual relationship with them. To honor them and chords down this status of having a special power discussion. Now, I want to talk a little bit about the implications of these kinds of encounters. I said that I think there are 40 Beyond disorder, if you like asides and it's because some exploration brought with it a couple of things. First of all, it dramatically alters Aboriginal social structure. Slavery already existed when Europeans did, first of these ships of exploration later, the fruitcake ports and live it was create a much larger market for slaves, basically, prostitutes and Aboriginal communities responded to this by expanding the state rate. So, we have an expansion expansion of warfare, of rating of slave taking on the Pacific Northwest starting with Captain more or less oblivious to Europeans but to see this, but in fact, more violence, more women pressed into slavery, so this exploration.

Unknown Speaker 31:55
portunities is the word sales describes and so we have European men badgering Aboriginal women and housing women, blockading themselves in their homes when their men are away, protect themselves. European men clearly on occasion, there was violent violence seeking of Aboriginal women, what we would call rape and and other kinds of sexual violence and of course, what does this violence do well get beyond this immediate impact on victims and families with medically effective relationships between Aboriginal non Aboriginal people who have Catholic cooking affecting peace and civilization and science. And standing here to form a settlement a friendly call talking about Christianity and having a Christian brothers get into religion. Meanwhile, the men are going around acting in a very uncivilized and Christian way. A salary mission 62. Explorers, to man dramatically the fact that we have a contract contract, if you like it sounds that we have some especially Spanish accounts of this kind of violence between sailors and Aboriginal people around this issue. Here's one Spanish document. The sailors This is from the Spanish and Spanish officers either as a result of the almost brutal upbringing, or because they envied the humane treatment, the commandant and other officers always gave the natives insulted them at various times, crippled some wounded others and did not fail to kill 771 commanding officer can be quite annoyed that you clean up in size new job would not come to visit expanish because the men would do with violence to his limit. Punishment. And a few years later, the Spanish commander told mokwena to keep his limit away from technical quote, either my man or his might kill each other on account of winning. Now as I said, there are very few Aboriginal accounts in fact, I've only come across one average. And this is from the champion elder passed away now Peter Webster, but Peter from a housing story of relationship with his family. It goes like this he says the Spaniards Memorial needs pneumonia think means translated in a couple of ways. Men without homes, on boats. These namami they sure must have treated the native Indian young girls bad. They used to pull them into the blacksmith's without any Romans. Some of the Indian girls refuse what these guys wanted. The blacksmith had that red hot iron always ready for those that refused and describes basically raping Aboriginal women with a bit hot poker. You You know, clearly these kinds of behaviors

Unknown Speaker 35:12
so that's, I think, you know, one thing to keep in mind other aspects of this disease for this encounter, they are important. Cook's voyage we know, the ship was admitted with syphilis and combined with cook to his credit tried to prevent these men from having sexual relationships between being in the Pacific and fail basically, women just essentially mutiny when cook tried to prevent him he wasn't sure. And so as a result, cook Debian and men went into these Pacific nations in Pacific Northwest spread syphilis, gonorrhea, and was spread quickly throughout this population. Causes related causes early death, and reducing population level is unknown. And we don't actually have a clue as we mapped out the significance of those things, very important factor of visits.

Unknown Speaker 36:14
The other aspects that are already alluded to why I think it's important in your Christian brothers and kind of Christian eyes, which is one of his main missions, the men who are oppressed at that salary relationships, the official goals of his expedition were being somebody's sabotage by the sexual behavior. And the best example of that is going up and down. If you're familiar with the story of the sailors who were sent off to Tahiti by breadfruit, and going back to West movies to repeat slaves, and that's the Imperial mission, they liked what they're seeing on TV so much to sexual encounters with tissue tissue women up but cafe's near movies and other captains trying to prevent some kind of sexual context. So you know, as a result cooks Imperial objective of keeping up like syphilis out of these counties and communities, especially motivations of separation. So these kinds of sexual relationships also raise all kinds of questions. That story doesn't get me to come to grips with our questions about hierarchy hierarchies on ships, it's clear that the average men on the ships were had suitable power I can deal with the captain captains couldn't always control the ships, the men, not the men when they had to be given into in certain cases. It raises questions about the whole gender nature nature of exploration. Exploration is from not having a gender, sexual and gender dynamic. So featuring the sexual nature of explanation here is not trying to argue that sex or libido or explain his exploration that pacifically those motivations I talked about, were the ones that got people moving. But it really conditions I think, how we understand how that process unfolded, in some cases of sabotage by a separation. In other cases, the whole Imperial objective of if you like, occupying the colonizing territory was in some hands written increase by spreading asst to liken colonization process. So really what I want to point out is that sexual as well as the periodic scientific and religious motivations swept together in Siemens hammocks who came on deck in different combinations. Thank you very much.

Unknown Speaker 38:48
So I'd be glad to answer questions or talk about these

Unknown Speaker 38:53
consequences aren't so good. And also

Unknown Speaker 39:09
the consequences?

Unknown Speaker 39:13
Well, I think it shows children. As far as I can tell, again, yes, sort of in the Aboriginal side, but on many societies, especially not pesticides or matrilineal. So it's children would inherit from their mother's side rights and privileges. So the paternity of the children didn't matter so much. So they will inherit the rights and obligations and will be considered for members who think Aboriginal people didn't think in racial terms. They didn't have a concept of race and we kind of knew themselves and knew others, but the kind of scientific idea of race is permeated. So these children were accepted if we find large in terms of attitudes towards prostitution, you know him ECPA 200 research. So you might be putting a pretty tentative and large historical record. But seems clear to me that this considerably different attitudes towards sexual behavior among married or an extra. Now it could be, depending on where you go on YouTube and address. In some cultures, as I mentioned the right course. Several entities have quite a different role in the community, then saving the challenge. And from what I've got and the challenges. That value chapter you've dealt with marriage initially sees only the prostitution of slaves, the latest social breakdown.

Unknown Speaker 40:43
I saw that British movie called Catherine Cook, and I was under the impression that when they find the film, that it was mainly because the vision and it could just be that impression that

Unknown Speaker 41:06
Mr. Johnson? Well, I actually I would have liked to have seen the documentary on cook. But I think jealousy of Native men and violence that comes between native and non Native men over Aboriginal women is pervasive throughout this kind of doing the lines, literature. And also, I've read elsewhere that somebody suggests that there's various explanations why the clients cook cooking, probably as good as any. But another one is also, they realized by its third voice, the effects of venereal disease, that, you know, you've been back enough times and to be able to connect venereal disease to these European ships. And so, at least at least one squat or abuse. In fact, they were mad at him to his crew for this, and another thing is coming back and the other characters. So

Unknown Speaker 42:04
that's a good question. You, yes. There's some homosexuality on the ships. And it's documented because it was not it was illegal. And not only was it illegal, but punishable by death. buggery as they call the rich media, but it always was punishable by death. And so there are too many 18th century records of trials of men who charge something that can harm for essentially homosexual behavior. That's, you know, so few, I think, something like a dozen in the case of 60 or 70 years, and you think about, there's about 120,000 men in Division ed. So, I mean, that raises questions is one scholarly article called buggery in the British Navy? And I would say addresses some of these questions, but you know, what's happening? Are our homosexuals just so? Well, we know from other accounts of free society, that who was actually among the upper class and where society wasn't, you know, so frowned upon. So what's happening here? Is working class culture different is people turning a blind eye, which is one of the suggestions that they know the punishment is death. So many people's turn a blind eye is kind of you know, that's all I can say. It is, remarkably few convictions or punishments for this crime, I explain that as either didn't happen very much for people.

Unknown Speaker 43:48
I don't think so. Either assemble them in Missouri, which is kind of on the northwest coast, there's quite a bit of hate your work to jump off the ship in the middle of the Pacific Northwest, where you don't know anybody in employment that what happens to these men are they they're enslaved themselves. They're treated like any stranger would be treated. You know, if I suppose we didn't have relationships with families there that we need agreement between themselves. There are stories of native women, one on some of the British ships, not the well known case, Vancouver shipped and Vancouver was returning to Hawaiian women who were not clear to me whether they were kidnapped by a bird trading ship bought from Sydney Northwest. And then given the Vancouver to return to rely on their back, or whether they'd signed on for some kind of some kind of T shirt about that. There's evidence of women's active participation in some of this counting evidence, of course, behavior and others by MEC business Pizza. But it was such a small fragment of the circle represents a small fragment, especially in this case, what actually happened was lot of possibilities

Unknown Speaker 45:15
later on, operate by to manage relationships

Unknown Speaker 45:30
have you seen any indication that the cottage industry also precedes?

Unknown Speaker 45:44
There's a couple of really good books that you probably know about about Galatians be for traders and native women and men, both of these books portray these relationships as basically mutually beneficial. And well, I have no doubt that that's true in those cases. But both of those books I think, overlook the more casual sexual encounters that were very, I think, a very common part of the fluctuating experience. And they look at the kind of marriages that are formed during that period, and chart them with a long lasting mutual benefits. There's no denying that, but I think that they're willfully blind to the kind of more senior side to kind of Les Paul human side about this. But certainly through that first trade era, there was lots of again, what Europeans would describe as prostitution and they have a different context between the workplace if it's the end of the season for many employees talking about canoodle so then you're going to Victoria for market there, we call it more smokey. First, so in the settlement era, certainly in the Gold Rush era, there was both violence against native women and Kenyan baby candy and more commercial transactions. In Victoria, yeah, the more I think about it in Victoria in the 1850s, and storia, they called Indian dance houses, essentially brothels. And in this case, you have women coming from all over a BC down to Victoria. I think this is eventually become a sniper course. But these women from his North Coast cultures that didn't have moral sanctions against premarital extramarital sex, would engage in sex relationships in Victoria and pick this park was back in Potlatch what since he was gonna get to wherever and enhance their status in their own society using this as a way of making goods so some of these behaviors do trance through the center

Unknown Speaker 48:06
well you have this society, I would like to thank you for an interesting and sensitive topic.

Unknown Speaker 48:29
Thank you very much. Thank you.