Salt Spring Island Archives

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Early Logging

panel discussion

Panel discussion of early logging on Salt Spring Island.

Accession Number Interviewer SSI Historical Society Address
Date February 8, 2000 Location Central Hall
Media tape Audio CD mp3 √
ID 166 Duration




Unknown Speaker 0:09
Keith is born Victoria. And he started sailing at the age of 10. And failing ever since. He's worked on both 30 vessels on the Atlantic and the Pacific Ocean, the Beaufort Sea and the North Sea, on the Mediterranean Sea, on the Great Lakes, and on the Gulf of Mexico. He's spent two seasons sailing and those two out of Halifax, and probably had a bad experience came his first book, which is now a print on demand, even though he is very Kaplan, as you probably know, on the long harbor to us, and published the book, the subject of light on the water last November. And I felt badly that he didn't have a launch party or something, they themselves down celebrating. And this, in fact, is the first of a number of movies that will celebrate local authors. And I really, really think that's a good thing to do. Because I have a vested interest in that. But I think that if somebody comes up with a book, it's really nice. It's great to be part of it thinking of this as a bit of a celebration. And he's a meticulous, craft craftsman. And you'll you'll see that from his book, there are a few copies, by the way back to Black Hawk. And once he's finished, he won't be leaving, he will be able to send me a copy of violent when he was producing his book, but when it was being produced by the publisher, I was also working on a book. And it was interesting because he was exactly in terms of his demands and publishing, more photographs, better reproduction. He was getting all these things. And meanwhile, I was looking for more photos, or text. And I was begging my publisher for all these things and not doing all that well. So I was kind of jealous of you also sat down with one layer publishing was there. Whereas I send many letters. Anyway, I won't say anymore, my good friend

Unknown Speaker 2:49
thank you very much for inviting me here today.

Unknown Speaker 2:56
I don't there's much more to say Charles has said it all. I appreciate the fact that both you're scheduled to bring me here to start this early day so I can catch my ferry. But I don't know if the ferries are running out because of high winds. So they totally understand. First and foremost, I've I've gotten impressed by the fact I'm not a historian and Nora, my photographer. But I have very keen interest in green history as I do in photography and the accumulation during compilation to the two interests coincided in the book. Multiple find loves ended up that was that was the reason for the book. And the reason I did it. This is my second book is Charles said first one was on the Bluenose. The first one was a history on the Bluenose and Bluenose. Two and that gave me an introduction into maritime archives while I was living in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and get myself rolling here. I've had this for a while. That got me interested in archival maritime photography. Yeah, the actual the original idea behind the book started while I was in Nova Scotia in the 1970s with a conversation I had with Neil John and she was the curator at the Maritime Museum in Halifax at the time. And he told me that he didn't believe there was any maritime history on the West Coast we're speaking of and well being deployed from British Columbia. As soon as I get back out here again, I started looking through the archives and see what I can do about that. What I can do about it to sort of prove them wrong. And that's really what got me started. When I started looking in the collections, it took me a while I started in 1991 I couldn't believe what was available to the public just for the asking, just going into an archive and getting somebody to show you around and start looking through photographs or if ration. It was all there. It's all for you. It's all it's for the public. And I was just stunned. I came across one remarkable photograph after another and soon realized that many have been buried in the archives for far too long, and deserve to be taken off the shelves and brought into the light of day and appreciated, admired by the public at large. Another book seemed the obvious way to do it. Having decided that there was a book out there, it took me a while before I was organized enough to get started. But once I did, I was hooked. What became began as a tentative exploration into the provincial archives turned into a six year obsession involving Research in Music, maritime museums, public libraries, city archives, small museums, private collections all up and down the coast. I had originally began searching for photographs of commercial shipping under sale, but soon broadened the parameters to include just about anything but maritime nature. During this period, I estimate I looked at approximately 300,000 images. Now that might seem like a lot of photographs, but the holdings of this province are just a max like BC provincial eyes, something like 8 million images. Vancouver Public Library has 400,000 and maybe, you know, a third of that, or a quarter of that is actually on display and the rest are buried deep in the only abscess you can get rid of is your card catalogs and accession files. It seemed the deeper I got into a collection, the more surprises I found, I found images that remained unseen even by the staff of the selections for 50 years or more. And my excitement was contagious. And often this stuff was a surprise to delighted as I was, you know, every time I went into a place, it just seemed I never got stumped. I always found something that was really fresh and exciting and new. Just never never get lost. The, to me a beautiful photograph is like a work of art, like a painting it is it has to be balanced and well composed. It has to have drama and evoke a mood or tell a story that has to have those qualities that capture the eye and the imagination. The photographs that interested me had these qualities and their story was the history of this coast. Photographs have generally been used to illustrate and accompany text, and are often poorly reproduced and crop beyond all recognition. What I wanted to do is produce a volume that would represent some of the best work of photographers, photographers of this coast and have it reproduced in large format. And using the latest type of high quality reproduction, in essence having reproduced as they should have been originally done. Most of the early photography, photographs were not taken on a whim, the immense bulk of equipment. And the expense of the operation kept most photographers into the studio. But those that ventured out into the field would carefully consider their subject before setting up their equipment to take a picture. The thought and consideration that was given to the subject often resulted in photographs of great clarity and beauty. The fact that they are all black and white is also a bonus as far as I'm concerned. I've always found them to have a special appeal and timeless equality that color cannot just cannot match. After a while I found that finding enough images wasn't the problem. My living room floor was often covered with piles of photocopies and the family budget was sometimes stretched from the three productions that I would order. But in the end, the selection posted process that'd be purely subjective. However, I did try and balance different areas of interest and reflect as well as possible the development of the coast. Once I had chosen an image, I had to research the story behind it. This took time and volume was evolving, verifying, checking and rechecking the facts. Even then a few mistakes of by a few of you might have noticed. It often felt like detective work trying to identify a ship or a dock or work at a date. Most of the photographers whose work is included in this book remain unidentified, and others remain giants in their field to this day. We are fortunate to have this legacy left to us by those observers of our past and lucky that the developments in photography coincided with the development of this coast. The photographs are windows into our history and the VISTAs the ships and the docks and the people that are the subjects are as fascinating and inspiring to me as I'm sure they weren't to them, those photographers that observed and recorded them in the first place. Now I'd like to I'd like to show you a selection of photographs from the book and and talk about them a bit is going on Charles Sure. Thanks Because

Unknown Speaker 10:11

Unknown Speaker 10:18
what was the slide trade this is a sailing ship heavier in 1940 by sailing out of Vancouver harbour this this photograph is probably was in the in the late 40s and 50s Probably one of the most readily identifiable photographs and just putting your shipping office in, in North America and it's kind of ironic that this is the latest picture that I will show you. It's at the sailing ship in New Orleans picture I will show you as a motor vessel but this is actually a January 1946 Six and it's under the from the Dakota tuck Snohomish from Ireland target barge taken by a man named Hugh Frith. Yeah, masters of the sailing ships she had no engines on would often accompany ships towed as much as 75 miles off off shore. Ensure especially in games like this mature they had plenty of secret before they lose their job. And the master this ship pulled up put up for upper and lower topsoils and was readily overhauling the total energy. They had finally to cut loose and she's underway with a load of bag week for New Zealand. Next month, you should take the mic in your hand. Okay. This is the back of the same ship where the enemy is was very well known. These are very rare these turned up. This is one of about three dozen little tiny photographs are both two by one by two inches. That ended up in the BC maritime museum archives donated by a man that was a decoy on the amateur from 1944 to 1946. And they just they're incredible abuse decorazione ship they're very rare to see something like this These boys were are known in the trade of the sailing ship. Ships husbandry everything was made onboarding and could be worker or fixed on board was done on board at cost down. These guys are set up there's sue the sales next this is one of the the finds that would almost make you cry in the light. We found that this this was very, very, very deep in the Vancouver Public archives. There was no copy of it, it was only a eight by 10 class plate. That public hadn't been brought out of the slaves since it was donated in the 40s to the to the the archives in Vancouver Public Library in special collections. And so the CD ran a sailing vessel around 1910 Fazzino sound took a bit of digging and looking at photographs from around that era to find out exactly what the ship was. But it shows the cross mix of cultures of Western and native cultures here every year European crew in the foreground there who said Indians in the back were known as some of the best hunters on the coast you can see this western style there are European design authority in the front which is specially designed for ceiling in the background. You can see the Indians thing And funny enough dugout canoes refer to these as soon as I saw this and black and white in reverse image on eight by 10 glass plate. I just knew it was gonna go in the bucket so spectacular.

Unknown Speaker 14:02
This is Miss Betty Brown at the launching of the ship Mabel Brown. Her father was a sponsor of it.

Unknown Speaker 14:11
This is on July 17 1917. There was the first shipbuilding boom of a British Columbia send the Wallace shipyard there was 12 of these vessels being built. And there were six being built in orfan at Wallace and six in Victoria. And they were being basically built to save the BC lumber industry from collapse. Because all the shipping that was happening in Second World War was the toll was being taken in the North Atlantic. And so many ships were being something wasn't enough to carry our lumber to foreign ports. So they enacted the DC shipping act in 1917 to support the industry to build ships to transport products. This is particularly interesting. The ship refused to budge when she launched because the grease on the skid was It being January it hardens. So when they took the brakes off and knock the blocks out, you wouldn't slide down the ways. They had to wait two weeks later and until it warmed up I guess I should go on. Next please. This isn't Victoria Harbour it's the SS worn a noose photograph taken by Harold Fleming in 1918. And this was almost a direct result of the maple brown class of schooners that were being built in trust in the imperial ambitions for an England to build ships wouldn't ship something on the coast here. That was a great many buildings a huge shipbuilding. This is one of them was being built called the war news. And it's in Victoria Harbor there were 2800 Tiny cargo ships. You can see how it dwarfs the word workers in the foreground in the background. It was one of 27 such steamers built in BC, during World War One was approximately 20,000 people at this launching. Anybody knows Victoria you can see in the background here. That building here is the Hudson's Bay Company. It's interesting in October the second though is now watching the launching of the Pacific race which is assault society vessel and it was a very similar sort of way. Microchip we are getting the orchestra to move around and ship very British Columbia. It was interesting to watch looking at her stirring across the Hudson Bay Company mountain lion over here. The big timber going across the back there is strong back the whole the the rudder in place before she is She slides into the water so she wants a lot of back and forth and damage the rudder excellent

Unknown Speaker 16:51
is the princess Kathleen and I can tell you is if we see very often. I kind of pine for the days. Linen silverware. Nicely appointed furnishings. In 1925, she she and her sister ship Princess Marguerite dominated the tri triangle run with Victoria, Vancouver and Seattle. Unfortunately she sank at no point Alaska in 1952. She ran aground. Hope rebel on a rocky foreshore everybody got ashore and the tide went out. Stern wind down she fled from the stern Persian slid off into the channel and sank.

Unknown Speaker 17:39
These are sort of classic shots that were taken by CDR four publicity purposes. This instead of a leather bound folio and at the Vancouver maritime museum that was presented to Captain Salman Robinson was a master of the members of Russia is that 1914 is the first class lounge. She was built in Scotland. It's not for me. She was built for built in Scotland for CPR specifically. But the Empress of Russia and her sister ship the Empress of Asia. Every minor on Pacific at the time. And it's absolutely gorgeous.

Unknown Speaker 18:29
It sure makes your day when you're flipping through photographs on the archives and come across images like this beautiful cemetery is just taken. Grayling dock in a spy mall in 1929 is the Empress of Canada. She'd gone aground near Albert head on October the 13th in 1929 and heavy fog just came back from England after re engine. She was maneuvering very stall because of the heavy fog but she's still required to she she got to considerable damage requiring 20 plates we placed on her on her bottom. They work day and night for 18 days to get her back in service and only missed one scheduled sale

Unknown Speaker 19:16
when CTR started up they had when the railway was completed the coast they wanted to get a connection service across to across the Pacific to the Orient as quick as possible. So we put into service several ships being one of them, steamship Parthia, which was chartered chartered, just for that purpose was taken 1887 by the famed Montreal photographer William Notman. The other vessels long site has a cooling Kalkan. She had quite a history on the coast here her name is Robert Kirk, but this is one of three this EPR had used as an interim vessel fast vessel for a cross site until it builds its own fleet. She had exhilarate sail propulsion because she also had one of the longest legs on the coast. She continued to 1956 in one form or another

Unknown Speaker 20:25
this is the SF Tolmie in 1922. It's really a classic shot of a ship at sea. Built for Victoria ship owners limited. such huge costs there was three of them to be built, that they went bankrupt and two of the others were their friends who've broken up and sold the firewood and never completed. She was taken over by the Canadian government merchant marine from 1921 23 carry cargo cargoes to Japan and Australia. And this is on a return trip from Australia 1922 and the vessel encountering severe winds was forced into Hawaii for repairs. See whenever panels is blowing up and whenever for closer

Unknown Speaker 21:16
there's one of my favorite shots in the entire book. It's very well known one shot and it's interesting decrease the better the better. It gets sometimes I had a there is a shot of this floating around and is fairly well known but he's very contrasting and high grain and very severely cropped. And I finally got into this large largely uncataloged collection by ewe Crawford. And I'm searching through it and lo and behold came up with an original print of the original shot of this. It's very it's very fine grain. See the audience prior to these frost limits are sitting around and finally, finally, last week vessels in Victoria Harbour and it sits at the foot of Montreal st Victoria. Next one.

Unknown Speaker 22:14
This is the photograph that really inspired the name of the book light on the water, like charcoal like sketch quality to it. And it shows the things that enterprise in the harvest was sealing vessels. Drying or sales in the background tied up starting to the waters of checkpoints and the local crops that are showing how the Koreas became the world was becoming around 1900 vibrant recreational instigate at the same time. The building on the extreme right on the water is a floating boathouse with the original Victoria golf club. Directly above it is an Malahat building which still exists in Victoria's box and the vessel that's here. There's one right there actually still exists today. It's called the Dorothy and it's one of the oldest ships in BC or boats in BC and he has built in at 1989 and she has been restored now she belongs to the Maritime Museum in British Columbia because there's a museum next this is an interesting shot it's up ship on expect to get photographs of their ships of course. The only real easy way to do it was just look the lines and let the boat float out. As you can see your lines are often slapped on the side there. Take it on shore. All the cruise line back from the captain right on down to the Chinese stewardess since the SS news, and she was used as a shuttle shuttle barges between Vancouver and Lady Smith under an agreement with the nm railway spelt the 1908 by the FPC marine railway and Esquimalt and sailed until 1946. Her hope now lies a breakwater that was talking Royston building groundwater that has I believe about 16 chips in it. She lives along with them. It was interesting with this to the book has fringe benefits when you bring it out and you get people calling calling you hopefully not telling any mistakes he's been through a few of those fortunately but adding even more information. of the photographs are of interest and I had a man phone up that was the son of the captain. They gave him the name of every person on here, which is a nice bonus

Unknown Speaker 24:54
this is the cap follows December 16 1918 She's one of six five masters graphic schooners go by Lyle shipyard in North Vancouver. And this is during the ask for sea trials and that photograph was taken by one of the premier photo companies in Vancouver at the time Mr. Mini and photo company and the ships didn't fare well. But they are they were purchased by a Belgian businessman. Daniel refused on arrival. The Cape Cod polos did worse than other she she ran aground in Yorkshire in 1929. This patch and taking in tow, she broke her drift and fall weather with 17 men on board and was found after a seven hours search the men were rescued and she broke in half a few hours later and sank almost immediately. But she's felt that that lost her and had a small exhilarating, but mostly sale. Unlike the maple, maple, Maple PayPal, PayPal brown plastic vessels offense excellent

Unknown Speaker 26:11
this one I like grandpa Pacific vessels Prince Rupert, aground on Gen Island and 19 Seven teen is taken by WWE Westfall. As two hours after midnight departure from Prince Rupert and fall weather and poor visibility. She ran aground at Genoa which he had to sit there for about two weeks before they lost the rock away from her interior. Get a refloated contributor had lots of missed mishaps in her career, unfortunately, but she sailed down and continued services donated 56. This beautiful shop it was many of the ship hit the shore that and the trees were 30 feet away so that passengers could just walk off when the tide went out. And she landed on the following time. Next month.

Unknown Speaker 27:12
This picture was taken by SJ Thomson, Vancouver photographer. And it's taken I believe in the departure Bay, it's in 1898. And it's an unidentified vessel but it's on a week on its way to the Yukon Gold Rush. Stopping for coal and also being checked by by customers. You can see that flat hats and the BC provincial police that are sitting over here, here and over there, checking papers that these people do further. While they're in Canadian waters, you can only hope that these guys had a better costume and better fitted for the norm than they were wearing right here before they take it on their way. But there was hundreds of new ships going up and down approach taping writers to find the fortune experts This is a photograph taken by Hannah Manor ago, Victoria was on the preeminent photographers in Victoria, who was quite an Vanguard. In her work at the time, she did a lot of studio work and excelled and do a collage work. Hundreds of photographs of children all photo montage together and salons. This one is taken at the city of Kings Queens crew which is a Seattle based or Tacoma based both the rebranding between Seattle Tacoma and Victoria. Like it further work and I guess we're done almost looks like a flower or floral arrangement. The ship itself was round, Jacomo harbor and 89 and sank but not before the upper works slogan long enough everybody could get on some of these killed. Excellent.

Unknown Speaker 29:16
This is CPR Darkfire and July 27 1938. Taken by Stan Williams. The princess Adelaide and the Princess Charlotte. We're alongside at the time building to determine how the fire started with the creosoted here took off in a matter of 15 or 20 minutes. And the the two ships just barely got off and away from the dockside in time to weather scorched and burn. It was the home of Mensa ships since 1914 and it was not rebuilt. Some say it was the beginning of the end of the ACA CPR it's pretty dramatic picturing

Unknown Speaker 30:00
The first, the first photograph I showed you of the premier 1946 being the latest one, this is the earliest photograph that I found. It was a maritime nature and it's of the the HMS satellite. It was taken at 58. At the time the the gold rush, Fraser River Gold Rush refused by Governor Douglas to enforce some sort of order and crew went ashore in Fort Langley and the entrance appraiser to document and record everybody that was coming in 1000s of miners. It's interesting, this was also a different type of grant. It wasn't a dry plate it was called the collodion process, which is a very massive, sticky, smelly process that had to be done on the spot where you took a glass plate unpolished in a dark, dark under a darkened screen for this sticky solution and collodion over it evenly pour it over. semi hard on it still very talky and when I put it in the camera was still down take the picture and development goal is still down. We can say it was a job that was you would normally do in the darkroom. Or in the studio. It's very difficult to do on the in the field since this was taken by a mechanic Roche of the Royal Navy. This process up for us in England father, photographer, as I understand and you can see a bit of the unevenness, quality of the of the image. Downsides here. And that's the quality of the collodion as it was poured across the plate. Before it used it was thinking that he could do that

Unknown Speaker 31:56
this forger shot I found the city archives Victoria and suddenly the MP on Leander to naval ships. And it's an 1897 Just an exquisitely clear shot. All struck polished and painted or bunching up it's for the Jubilee Diamond Jubilee of Queen Victoria. You see don't stand in the background. And both carry tennis six inch guns and Portofino tubes. The empty on ran aground on kelut Bluff in 1889. November The sixth with Lord Stanley as party on board the Governor General had to have 35 plates replaced at Victoria machinery depot. That was one of the first major jobs that was actually done in the depot rather than waiting for taking ships out and having a downtime elsewhere. Part of the keel architecture How many of you have it it's hard to tell if it's all accordion Duffin sits at the corner of Beacon Hill Park. Douglas, about Brooks was pretty calm to being there to this day.

Unknown Speaker 33:16
This is as stereoscopic photograph, which is very popular and you could turn homes of any images if you make a 3d image, you'd have a camera that had two, two lenses about two and a half inches apart. And it take two separate photographs. The photographs were printed and mounted on a card side by side by side. And then it would be viewed in a card holder called a stereoscopic camera. And it would make a 3d image is very, very popular. This is the HMS Warspite Victoria and the graving dock being prepared. This was the flagship of Charles Hoffman and this is taken in 1891 by Richard Maynard, the husband of animator collage photographer

Unknown Speaker 34:16
This is a bunion Bay on Vancouver Island. Deepwater ships with way to load cold at the Union color rewards. Discovery of high grade coal in 1940s. Vancouver Riley very popular place especially for the populace of California who were bursting at the seams and needed as much fuel as they could get. So most of this stuff on So originally it was just later that we chips and canoes and then later barges and then finally it was a big build. Traveling straight from that they call the retreat down to the words you can still see the pilot is left from this stem an island is about From memorial plaque there

Unknown Speaker 35:14
this is an extremely rare shot of Stanley ship in distress. This is a rather well known online karma. Take the 1950 ships come up from DC ports and enter the Strait of Juan de Fuca. Very few would be trying to make the streets themselves Lewis would prefer very favorable and usually on the summertime, if big highs and steady wins in the wintertime, especially they would wait off good flattery. talking back and forth. These chips are fairly and manageable. Things were shipped as opposed to a foreign Halfbrick ship like the Spooner and the wait for a tone this one couldn't find one that attacked back and forth got caught in a gale and blown ashore just so Kafeel because something she got both tankers or sales or shredded she sailing cold cold like set were actually quite sick but they I believe to take those money is I cannot say my vessel. They've already launched one boat which is gone turned up. So right now I'm trying to launch another one. I believe 25 people on board by per se this picture was taken from that Princess McClintock just poke your nose out of the piano just to take a look to see what the weather was like and saw the ship in distress came down to try and save her like she was almost on the rocks couldn't come in very close. She tried to stream a line down to her but was unsuccessful. A huge cpmr carpet the mind back anchor tables on the chroma key when she rolled over a rock star to herself on the race. The same way tomorrow the anchor of endless principal planner would also anchor down under big gaping hole in your cortex so she had to learn to feel it. They thought all was lost on board the five survived

Unknown Speaker 37:17
this is one of the rare shocks you come across. Maritime Museum rich Columbia Victoria Dave has just entered on human nature maintenance and nothing else and it's not something you'd look for normally when you're looking for sailing ships are enhanced by a lot of these images get lost or they remain undisturbed. But as shimmering as harbor in time determine time, but it's somewhere we believe from ages 16 and 1818 t shirts voting. Voting number 30 the bow cords you can see the polls and about skateboards that are put up there and the Romulan planks that make up the the dockside just explain exquisite shots are two of the shots together to almost make a panorama but not quite there. Those are little further child's exquisitely clear

Unknown Speaker 38:19
this is the SS caravan in 1912 in Bullins way and it's by Ma shipyard also taken by girl Fleming it shows repairs being made on the steamship error being a runner has been removed and what looks like the main onboard ship observing the workflow should belong to the east Asiatic company of Denmark and it was much like the East India Company I think when she decided to start trading, setting up trading but how did you get on the west coast because of the opening of the Panama Canal we spent a couple of meters and they want to be on the ground people are betrayed and she's still traded. The company still traded this last decade the mindfulness coach the diver and their hardware is present experience

Unknown Speaker 39:18
is became part of heroes heroes operation and victory

Unknown Speaker 39:27
well, some say the word World War Two for a hit this boats very much but certainly hit this ship the Ford Camosun in June of 1942. She was at north north sands type ship as built into the mid in Victoria for the US war administration and then leased to the British Ministry of War transport. On her maiden voyage followed by what she was about 70 miles northeast of Cape Flattery and was attacked by a Japanese submarine. Ship wouldn't sink because it was full of plywood. How much the with the stress of the Japanese commander I'm sure they told her into Neah Bay on the American shore and found Well she's still floating so they dragged her across to those final Harbor. And that's where she is in this picture. You can see the water pouring out the bottom and two sailors hang up on me sometimes, but it's just the extensive damage. But the gutter all patched up and fired into service and she continued working. She went out into the Atlantic and survived the Atlantic convoys and sail right up until 1962. Is just 1000s upon 1000s of one pound tins of Fraser River salmon feed from the Phoenix cannery in 1881. These tenders were put into the bowls and sandwiches taken around the world, taken around Cape Horn to Europe. They're pretty primitive counting techniques. Imagine the solder content and electron that was very high poles in the tops of these things and steam them off and then a big blob of solder was put on the top of

Unknown Speaker 41:15
Hancock and bark. And a lot of salmon, it's no wonder we don't have any left today.

Unknown Speaker 41:23
Next place this is the interior of the ship in Vancouver harbor in 1925. misstated by William Moore is a commercial photographer in Vancouver. The shop itself is very rare because hardly any photographers went into the workplace to document the worksite. And that's exactly pictures of the ships and the operations but very seldom the shots on the show is the storage pattern of a typical Prager of the day and how all the carbohydrate is separated from fat to stop shifting his bag flour from Alberta and crude goes into this as part of the volume of work and the Vancouver Maritime Museum. Really, just days before I was making my final decisions on what I was going to choose, and it's just filled with shots like this it was wonderful. But they're not ADW very seldom run the proceeds

Unknown Speaker 42:34
the shot on the next one are taken by one of the giants of photography in British Columbia Leonard Frank. He came from province in 1898 and started his career in Port Alberni and moved up a few years later into Vancouver and spent an enormous man for himself. It's just incredibly composition photographs. This is the Pacific coil tucked docks in 1930. It shows about 15 or so talks and you can tell it's close to Christmas from the Christmas trees that are tied to the top of their maps. We still do that PPC for Instagram. So traditional method for marketing the season. Next this is also taken by brother Frank 1900. While he was still in Port Alberni, Stark informal portrait of a harpoon gun on the bog steamship or Ryan. The gun which propelled the explosive tip tar goons was the first of its kind in BC coast to be part of the new technology and perhaps anywhere else for metalworking devices. And lastly

Unknown Speaker 43:57
Andrews Harvard and if anybody has seen the book will know this is one of the mistakes I was referring to as I dated. This is the motor Princess, which service Ganges and she was built in 1923. By the CPR, it was the first car carrying ferry that was was built by euros she carried about 45 cars and about 250 passengers and number of cars had to go down as the as they increased in their size. The original shot that I was going to use before I came across this one was on the interior the motor princess with Model T's and it was dated 1925 and I use that unfortunately forgot to change the date and change the photograph at the same time. This is supposed to be 1950 I believe. Anybody can help me pinpoint the date down exactly. We'll try to get it right for the next edition. See The Hastings house in the background there 41 va 4141 40 Wonder what are they new but how new are they but anybody can get back to me Charles

Unknown Speaker 45:32
but it's interesting when you look at images like this you look at you take your first step it is really pretty and then you start looking at different little details here and you get a magnifying glass and you start looking at the closer right and you start wondering well who was this boy he actually finally

Unknown Speaker 45:52
started to just blend in and out

Unknown Speaker 45:58
original picture for recognizing people it's pretty clear is that these things house? I believe it

Unknown Speaker 46:08
is in the background that wouldn't have been them

Unknown Speaker 46:18
well, that's that's the end of my photographic show. That was before it was the penetrator queen. That's correct. Yeah. They cutter aways do I think she cut her open and made her and opened up very?

Unknown Speaker 46:59
This congregation with so many FCN personnel here. What I want to do, however, is give a very brief discussion of the history of CNN more for its corporate beginnings, and its corporate existence than any one specific area. CNN hasn't been as well dealt with as one of the other railroads that operates in Canada, we can argue with a great deal of justification that sciennes history is actually more important, and that the Canadian Pacific is longer. And it gets the more parts of the country and it is still running to more parts of the country. So the history of Canadian National Railways is a critical part of the history of Canada. But then, in no aspect, that the topic was as a topic was given and drifted is a very apt one. See, and of course existed then. And now we're looking at the process of another printing no other way of putting it of demolishing the company or the resell it to private enterprise or continued under public enterprise, but in a vastly different form. So it's very appropriate to look at it. And one of the important things to do when we consider what is gonna happen to the entity known as Canadian National, is to realize where it comes from, where it came from. Canadian National Railways started in 1836, as a small railway, regional railway, if you like sharp line, and the new terminology, south of Montreal running connecting St. Lawrence River to the channel to the rich low connect Champlain Lake Lake Champlain and the regional River, running down into the states that operated quite successfully. There's some indication that perhaps it was one of the first railroads in the world that would carry soldiers to war during the 1837 38 rebellions and Upper Canada and lower Upper and Lower Canada. That's beside the point. It was successful. And by the 1840s. You will we find that the the railway many if you like that had spread throughout Britain and Europe is spreading to Canada, of course, in central Canada, mostly. And also in coal mines. I passed out a little my wife passed out a brochure or a photocopy if you take a look at and it's one of the reasons that I said why we should really know the history of the railroad in Canada, because we can always trust our politicians and the young Mulrooney there might easily have been taking his lesson from a man named McNab. Sir Alan McNab, who was the governor and Upper Canada, who said quite honestly in the 1840s, that railroads were his politics. Not much has changed since then. And so again, as I said, we have to know where the railway is coming from when we start to think and decide how it's to be, how it's to be handled in the future. When I'm discussing historical topics, I always like to bring in the fact that if you don't look at the current situation, if you don't make the history relevant to the current, and we're going to lose the history. It's a tenuous hold that we have in Canadian society to moment. Historical body bodies are not very well funded, and we have to fight we have to fight for whatever money we can get. And so it's very important that we that we look at it in that regard. The relevance now, in fact, the relevance of history was one of the reasons I was able to sell the history project that I'll talk about a little bit later on to management at CNN, because the marketing department thought they could make something out of it. We've covered the cartoon. And the background can a national rabies, and really we had two backgrounds because first of all, we were a series of railroads that built were built across the country, champagne and St. Lawrence, the first one I mentioned, and that led to another called the Atlantic and St. Lawrence, St. Lawrence and Atlantic, which connected Montreal to the coast of Portland, Maine. It became the first operating part of what soon became the Grand Trunk Railway. Bill Tolman here showed me his Grand Trunk time earlier. During this day, Grand Trunk Railway became the first of the large and major systems to form Canadian National, incorporated in 1855. took over the railway that I mentioned, the A diamond isn't Lawrence in 1856, which gave it an instant track for shape, but it's still operated. By 1859, Montreal was connected with Toronto by train. This is the Grand Trunk. It had a rival at that time, it was called the Great Western. In 1882, the Great Western amalgamated with the Grand Trunk, and became part of the Grand Trunk Corporation, Grand Trunk company of Canada sorry, it's important, it wasn't a car, then. Cn probably started in 1884, or the philosophy behind the formation of a public owned railroad in 1884, Canadian Pacific, for one of those remarkable periods in its existence, of course, went to the government for some more money. Bill it was passed by the Senate or by the by Canada, the house of parliament in 1884, was alone bill for the Canadian Pacific. But in reaction to the amalgamation of the Grand Trunk and the Great Western, which took in most of southwestern Ontario, there was a specific clause in that bill, banning the amalgamation of the Canadian Pacific Railway with the Grand Trunk. Even in 1884, Canadians were saying amalgamation is is something we have to be careful about. So if you want to say when the whole philosophy or the thoughts for the formation of CN started 1884 is a good time to look at it. Because it's important. Then, of course, the 1880s is the period of the CPR and what more can I say about it? Canadians know enough about the CPR after the completion of the CPR, and then about eight from about 1896 on find the Liberal government under Laurier. It was seemed to be the next century the century was seemed to be kind of this. And the result is that there was another or a third railway book. And this was the important one a really important one as far as cn was concerned. The first railway boom of course, was the Grand Trunk. Second was the CPR. The third one came at the turn of the century, when Canada started to build not one but two other transcontinental railways. There are many reasons for this, of course, some people thought they could make money at it. Others thought they could make political capital out of out of the additional railroads. It's interesting to note that as these two other realms were being built, somebody has thought that he could build a third extra continental transcontinental railroad. The Americans, of course, still don't have a true transcontinental railroad. Do the issue in 1897 then became one of whether to be public enterprise or private enterprise. There existed particularly in Eastern Canada, a public enterprise railway Intercolonial Railway, also known as Canadian government rail. It's not too well known, but the BNA act did in fact call for the building of the Intercolonial Railway. It's one of the causes of the Act in 1867. This railway was eventually built, of course, from Halifax, through the Maritimes to Montreal, completed in 1876. And it went by the generic name of the Canadian Government Railways that wasn't a legal name, but it linked more than the intercolonial those railways in Brunswick and Nova Scotia. By 1897 the fact that famous quotation from from one of the government, one of the Liberal government was at the Intercolonial Railway was cribbed. Cabin and confined. It stopped it just south of Quebec City, if you wanted to expand and if we wanted to make money, which it had never really done, and had to go head further west, the discussion then became whether or not the next Canadian transcontinental should be the Intercolonial Railway extending westward from Quebec City, or whether it should be built anew. And for every liberal that I can find who was pro of the railway, we find as many conservatives of the era also in favor of a public railway. It was a very contentious issue. And it was an issue that was fought over the next five years in Canadian boardrooms, in the House of Commons and amongst politicians. Laurie, as I said, was the Prime Minister and eventually the, the private enterprise role, or Ruth was one as Kate resulted in two rail has been built. Regrettably, the country might have supported one new transcontinental railway, but instead it approved to one was Canadian northern system, which if any railway can be called a western Canada railway, it Stockland and the other of course, was the Grand Trunk Railway. Grand Trunk had been offered the opportunity to build the CBR 30 years before and it declined it. And this time, they realized the mistake of their ways and built started to build their own. Canadian northern was built under the terms of Made in North Pacific, made in northern Ontario and such things as that drive trucks extension was built as a Grand Trunk Pacific. These were built then between 1903 and World War One.

Unknown Speaker 56:53
The One of the major problems was a section that became part of the Grand Trunk or was supposed to become part of the ground track and that was the national transcontinental railway, which built eastwards from Winnipeg across the northern part of Ontario and Quebec, and headed south to Moncton, New Brunswick. That was the most truly political of all the rails. This is at a time when many Quebec residents productive francophones have headed south, across the border to work in Maine and places like that. And Laurier thought that if they could industrialize the north and central part of the province of Quebec would Laureles people back. So Laurie was the one who had this section of the of the really built the national transcontinental, it was supposed to have been leased to the Grand Trunk Pacific when when it was completed, advantageous rates. But by the time the national transcontinental was completed, World War One had come along, and the Grand Trunk Pacific was virtually bankrupt. By the time of World War One, however, both new transcontinental railways had been built. And the last spikes for each other was worse for some in various places in Canada. Canada then had three transplant metal rollers coast to coast. It was of course, too much. And as part of the discussion, as at the turn of the century, when I was talking about the deliberation over public versus private, there was a very careful study taken a rate regulation on Canadian railroads at the end of which the commissioner in charge of the whole thing said that and this is a quotation, he said, Where combination is possible, competition is impossible, and brought about the whole issue of regulation of railways versus a competition. And as you will see, this is of complete relevance. Now, as we start to discuss the fate of international railways. This commissioner in 1902, decided where you could have where the possibility of combination existed, competition became largely illusory. World War One, for many reasons, brought about the downfall of the major portions of the Grand Trunk in the Canadian Northern Railway systems. And during the war, when relatives were critical to take material to the ports, it was obvious that the government could not let we're always laughs are left with the gaps in the operation. Often, they were too important to take troops and material from the courts. So then the discussion then became what would happen to the national transcontinental Grand Trunk Pacific located in northern. There were considerable debates in Parliament. And as I said before, as many debates on one side of the house, or debaters as on the other, were in favor of public ownership. The issue had to be decided eventually by the union government of Sir Robert Borden. You Warden himself being the conservative board and has been in favor of public ownership of railways, and in fact have an entire transportation system, including the Great Lakes and steamships on the lakes, from as far back as 1902. Arguably, he had lost elections in 1904 and 19 are weighed over the issue of public ownership of transportation systems. Important thing is that this is one of the first times and only times in Canadian history that we have a politician advocating a complete and total transportation network. He was also advocating under public ownership. The three railways of course, were very different. Grand Trunk was operated under different mentalities Grand Trunk operated under the pure free enterprise capitalist scheme of things. Trouble with it, of course, was that its shareholders were by and large and almost entirely Europe and Britain, very few in Canada. They tended to operate on the for the bottom line, not very successfully, but that's another story. Canadian government really was a public enterprise railway. And as such, was looked at various scathingly by a large number of Canadians and particularly the further west you got people didn't predict they like the idea of public ownership as represented by the Canadian government railway that was the example they had before them when they were discussing it the third time third rail we have of course was Canadian northern system which was quite asst it was one of the few that built into a territory where where there was already traffic mainly Pacific was speculative, there's no doubt about it. It's one of the reasons they got so much money. Canadian northern tended to build into where there was already proven wheat, coalfields, timber, whatever. They built in patches, gradually linked up the various areas, but they usually always had cargo and freight. They also built a railway no better than was required for the existing freight at the time anticipating in the future that they would improve the facilities as as their as their hauling went up. And as I said before, Canadian Northern Railway is one that could be truly regarded as the Western Israel. Anybody who doubts the sincerity of the people who built the Canadian Northern and many use do, they thought that they were just building them as a nuisance to the Pacific, so to Canaan Pacific by the moat, to take a look at the records of the pain of Northern Railway that exist in Ottawa. I'll discuss records a little later. And you will realize that they, they were building it to operate as a railway. They not only built the railroad, it builds hotels to build steamer or they run steep ships on the Great Lakes and they also ran to crack ferry our steamers on the North Atlantic, which for their time was the fastest on the route, including the CPR emphasis. These then with a group of three different systems brought together under Borden under Boardman's government, the union government as a private sorry as a public enterprise system to run in competition with a gaming facility. It had been decided not to take the regulation route to govern the update, particularly the rates charged by railroads, there had to be competition by rail.

Unknown Speaker 1:03:29
Cn actually came together over the period 1918 2023 largely because the Canadian government railway personnel couldn't really be trusted, and in the eyes of Parliament, management of the slowly amalgamating system was turned over to the Canadian northern management. Grand Trunk, which was the senior of the railways, resisted right to the bitter end being taken over by the Canadian government. They had also gotten close to bankruptcy because of their western westward extension. They resisted as as long as they could, and part of this resistance included not allowing any of their seat of their middle and senior management to participate with the government and bringing the railroads together and amalgamated. The result as the Grand Trunk for many years was shut out of senior management of the rail they slowly amalgamating railroads was supposed to cause a problem after 1923 When the railroads were one because there was a considerable imbalance of Canadian northern personnel there and the two and the two rail is as I said, run under very different reasons. The Canadian ordinance hands on the Grand Trunk was hands off as far as senior management and shareholders was concerned.

Unknown Speaker 1:04:53
Interesting so by 1923, KT national was operating as a legal entity and required The the, the end of the board of this other LPs at amalgamated. And then October 1922. The old board of the Canadian northern Canadian national and Canadian Government Railways ended. And the new board came in with Sir Henry Thornton as the second president and Canadian National first president was in Canadian order. Thornton took over in October 1922. And he ran the railway, another 11 years. In that time, Canadian National Railways came together, personnel were amalgamated many of the rolling stock problems were dealt with. There was incompatibility of course, not so much engaged and enrolling stock quality of rolling stock, or their steel or wood construction. By 1926 1928, and Canada was really booming. The National really started to make a total profit, not just on the on the on operating profits, but paying off on the loans and bonds that went into building the railroad. One of the major differences between Canadian National in fact any railway in Canada, and railroads operating in the United States is that the railways in the United States were allowed the catharsis of bankruptcy, in which the the stock or the equity of original shareholders shareholders were lost entirely. Of course, the railway line still existed, and could be bought up at a song and kept going in the end until the next bankruptcy did not happen with Canadian national roads. It's one of the major problems facing facing it to this day, is the debt leftover from the honoring of that debt by successive Canadian governments. By then, the depression Acadia National Rail is well on the way to being a viable commercial entity. The Depression pretty well did that in and they had to await World War Two. And as we'll see, World War Two is when it made National Railways, as also CPR came into their own and proved their worth to the country. The interesting feature, of course, is to note and predicted this time of the year, as we look and remember, the services of the personnel and overseas is that Canada was seemed to have been ill prepared for World War Two, our navy or Air Force, perhaps not so much the army we're all seem to be ill prepared. But one of the cogent arguments the Acadians offered, some said there was a rationalization, but it was true, nevertheless, that the major force that Canada provided for the defense of the Commonwealth, and we have to look at it in the Commonwealth scale of things. The major influence for that in Canada were the transcontinental roads. And when you look at the record of the railroads during World War Two, and transporting freight, cargo, raw materials, finished goods and troops to coast to Halifax in the eastern part, if you'd like to Portland, Maine, and anywhere else, the rail was performed an enormous function. And this is, as I said, in this period of remembrance is well worth to remember that. That in World War One, many 1000s of Canadian men in this case went overseas as railway troops to operate railways. And during World War Two, there were 1000s of volunteers from the railways and went overseas to fight, not so much to operate to operate railways, there because it wasn't required as much in World War Two. But the important thing is, and I can't let this occasion go by saying, one of the most important functions operative are done in Canada during World War Two was the provisions of the supplies and the material that were required in Europe to fight the war. And that is why so many cm personnel were not even allowed, even if they had volunteered to go overseas, because their job was seen to be critically important in Canada. The interesting thing here, of course, too, is that this meant for the first time that many women were employed by the railways all the way up to but not including running mainline locomotives. Virtually every other job they were able to carry out and free men to go to, to go overseas. But there's many art there's much truth in the argument that Canadian Canadians who stayed at home and made the munitions and shipped them overseas, but as much to win the war, as did those who actually went overseas to fight after and again during the war is when is when the other parts of Canadian National, the parts that were now starting to cut off, came into their own, because every single part of the rail line from east to west was used to carry The troops and munitions to the ports, the only time the entire cutting national system has been used to its full advantage. That then, is the basic way in which Canadian National Railways came together and formed the service that had provided in carrying goods and personnel across country after the war was over, it was time for retrenchment. And in fact, many of the people here who stood up I suppose were were employed at this time in the railroad, and would see the numbers dropped drastically from about 120,000. At the height of the steam year, through the digitalization of the 1950s, through the enormous changes affected by Donald Gordon, all the way down to the present state of the railway. When I joined CNN in 1981, there were 78,000 personnel. When I left, CN, 10 years later, they were down to about 28,000 personnel. And you'll all have seen that the statistics, getting the amount of traffic carried in the in the in the third of their lines from Toronto East or started turning the West, compared the traffic carried in the two thirds of their lines from Toronto to the coast. The question then becomes, how do we look at the railway? How do we look at the national roads. And this was ended up in being the last of the projects that I was able to carry out its cn cn History Project, which ended up in the production of this book, The People's railway, the history of Canadian national roads. There were three reasons that I gave to senior management to gain approval for the whole project. I won't go into the the project itself, but the three reasons were, first of all, there's so very few books on Canadian Canadian national history that another one was needed. The Stevens volumes have had their limitations, and we're over photoprint. Second reason was that many of the people coming into Canadian National Railways and this is about 1980 by 1986 had no idea whatsoever about the background of the company. They didn't know how it, how it originated, they didn't know its history, they didn't know the heritage they were taking over from from people like people here. We wanted to educate both them. And we also wanted some way of letting the pensioners know that their work was appreciated. And the third reason and this reason, of course, is looming much more significant now that we start to ponder the fate of international is the fact that we wanted our political masters to have some idea as to the reasons behind the formation of CN. Far too often. We see it announced the Canadian National Railways was simply a war wartime requirements exigency if you'd like to bring together backup rails. Well, technically the railways weren't bankrupt. The railroads were heading towards bankruptcy, they could have come out of it. Cn was but brought together as a combination of a political thought held by a significant part of the country for two decades before it came together. It was not not political expediency that broke a National Railways together. It was the philosophy of the time and felt that Canada, the people of Canada should keep control of the railway network. And the people of Canada should be able to provide a sustainable and effective and credible option to the private enterprise of Canadian Pacific. That then, is where we stand at the moment where Canadian national and painted Pacific, we're going to have been discussing the plans of amalgamating in the East, East being from Winnipeg to Halifax. When the plans fell through and working, the Pacific Railroad has now offered to buy Canadian National. It's one of the reasons I suppose that it's going to take a long time for this to be decided, and Heaven knows how it'll work. But until they do, we hope and those of us who believe in the realities and what the reality is that meant for Canada, we hope that our politicians and those who decide the fate of the two realities do so it was a complete final on total understanding of the philosophy behind the formation looking at national in the first place. That's the main part of what I wanted to say. The other part of course, is that I see an archivist I was responsible for seeing records. See and records are,

Unknown Speaker 1:14:50
are readily accessible to anybody who wishes to conduct research into them. They're located at the National Archives in Ottawa. They've been transferred they're now periodic Over the years for 30 years, National Archives, of course, as I said earlier, is suffering severe cutbacks, and doesn't have the personnel that can give this the assistance they used to be able to. But the National Archives in Canada in Ottawa contain all cn historical records that never exist. From the beginning 1836 up to about the middle 1960s. The process is ongoing, and records are still being transferred regularly from Montreal, to Ottawa. And these aren't just paper records, or glass plate negatives, they're your engineering drawings, we have 250,000 engineering drawings, we still don't know how to transfer there are linen paper, there are tracing paper. It's an enormous volume of material, but it ends up there. As far as genealogical research goes, there are virtually no assistants unless you happen to have work for the normal garter rails, we found a group of records, they're almost complete. The same with the Intercolonial Railway, and in the East. But from the vast bulk of Grand Trunk made in Oregon personnel, the records, the personnel records simply don't exist. And the other thing that that is lacking are the records, the the personnel records of individual stations and agencies across the country, those two have disappeared. But if you're looking at the corporate history, if you're looking at the financial history, and even down to the economic history of the railway, the records exist under a novel. And so for those who are interested in trying to guide the destiny of a national, or, more, more mundanely, if you like running model railroads, things like this, the records are there, if you know how to handle them, and know how to use them. And the more people know about the National Railways, the more we realize that and hope that the fate of a railway will be will be dealt with in a proper fashion. Very much.

Unknown Speaker 1:17:12
Are there any questions? Yeah, I'm not as familiar as you are with the routes across the country. Could you just briefly say were the three major transplant

Unknown Speaker 1:17:24
the problem with two of them was they ran very close to each other in many parts. The old Grand Trunk Pacific ran from from the Alberta border to Prince George Prince Rupert, named northern rail we can only see Canadian, the Fraser Valley in full view of the pain. Both railways, Canadian Northern and further, further north across the craze than any of the other railroads. That's my Canadian. One of the reasons Canadian northern is so important to Westerners. Because they, they opened up the real part of the prairies where it was important for agriculture was important and possible. If you look at it now, and one of the reasons that the Canadian Pacific runs into trouble in the prairies is the Native Pacific was too close to the American border, perhaps for strategic reasons. They don't run through the better Arctic cultural parts of the periods. Grand Trunk exists existed almost entirely in southeastern Ontario, and southwestern Ontario and then to Montreal, Quebec. And there the arm American loans, subsidiary so our Grand Trunk and Grand Trunk Western Duluth, Winnipeg and Pacific and the railway they've just sold a Central Vermont, which had from the Great Lakes region east to Portland, Boston and connections with American roads. Canadian Government Railways were the worthy public release of the Maritimes. And there were small lines that link to Quebec City with Monckton St. John and Halifax and they divvied it all over the place. They're in Brighton, Cape Breton. They also brought in real wisdom to Brunswick, one of the sharp lines that came to Pacifica selling business one of these and, with a totally different unreleased released, became Park in 1949. Canadian national courts existed and was fitted right in into the overall system. The problem with the dukan Umbrella was its narrow gauge, which was never resolved. It was navigation. There is no railway now im PEI. There's no railway in Newfoundland was next to no railway in Nova Scotia. And the railway is disappearing from New Brunswick. The very real chance that that in the next 18 months the only railway line upgrading railway line in Canada, west or east of Montreal is a Canadian National mainline from Montreal and Halifax, all the rest of the polls unless sharp lines Canadian Pacific already has permission to close down on its eastern lights, what about the life insurance?

Unknown Speaker 1:20:04
That's a very sore point. That's Canadian National line was started by the Canadian Northern Railway and it couldn't finish it.

Unknown Speaker 1:20:12
It wasn't finished until the middle 1930s, the first green line from Churchill in 1933. It's a sore point, and it's one of the areas where the railway can back off and see whatever you decide. Because it's they don't look at it as generating revenue, they get their costs returned. And it's the farmers now who are fighting over whether the avalanche continue or not. It's a very small group of farmers who say it should continue. I noticed there's something in that paper just a week ago, saying that those are unfavorable lines say that CNN is deliberately keeping traffic back. They did that in passenger service. So perhaps they're doing that, too. But it doesn't make much sense to just send it to Churchill. And I suspect that line is in jeopardy. They just can't build it. The problem is, they're rolling stock now was so huge for the for the mainline rain travel, but it's too heavy for the both for the railway that goes there. And the and the right away. It's just treacherous. So unless there's a real initiative from the, from the farmers for for involved, I don't think it'll last much longer.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:35
No, I don't think no, she does not rarely on VDI, now. They they've done some pretty imaginative things and see old right away. There's all sorts of trails, hiking trails, schemes across country skiing, and bicycle. But the first thing I always will do when they get permission. And it takes a long process. But the first thing they do when they get permission to abandon the line is to give up the tracks, they can say no permissions can be changed.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:14
It's a mixture of everything the unions are involved and the the shortline railways that are successful. And there's a lot more shortline railways in the States, and I don't know how they're operating shortline railroads in Canada that are successful, you can count them on one hand, have no unions, they they operate, total flexibility, which is perhaps the biggest thing, anybody can be excited to do it to do anything on on the line, including the locomotive engineer. The other thing, of course, is wages, wages and hours. But the biggest thing is flexibility. And the sharp line that's operating and central Canada forget, I think it's Alberta is making a success of it. And in fact, it has applied to by some of the areas than in the Maritimes that the other railroads are wanting to sell. So they're trying to extend selves. One of the problems now in Ontario, and with with the RE government is that there's a very good sharp line possibility there. But they're starting could make a lot of money. But the RE government has just passed the law, which says that the labor agreements inherent in the railway must go with it when it's sold, which negates the whole idea of a sharp line operation. I always like to make a comeback. I would think not. Canadians aren't using it. The there's enormous talk of of the Golden Triangle, Ottawa to Quebec City to Windsor. And there's been before I left cn 91, this great deal of talk of fast passenger travel. And it's quickly died out I haven't heard anything about it. And last two or three years, they sent up from the states have been have been running the European trains, running trials on them, and they've sent various of them up to Canada. But I just don't see it happening because it doesn't matter. The entire right away would have to be rebuild. And it's not just that it's not a good right away because it's superb. And there's four tracks because both cn and CP are double tracked in that in that area. But there's so many great crossings that they would have to get rid of those and the people just don't use them. I whenever I go back east I used to train as much as I can between Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto and you just don't see people on a large part of it is it's not made attractive and it's almost as expensive now as flying so until there's a lot more people in the country I just don't see coming back. Can actually cannot does still exist. And it seems to be getting more involved building out and in international affairs can act as the investment arm of Canadian National. Yes. Were you involved with it though? It's an area where we hope to extend Canada's got enormous expertise and running railways. And there are still places in the world that need this expertise predicting freight, we don't have much to offer passengers. And so Canada is the investment arm of Canadian National Railways and looking into extending the use of our technology overseas. is reminding Prince Rupert still? Yes, it is. Yeah. And you watch our great care because that's the two important parts of green coal or three and potash. Particularly granted coal. Yeah, yes, it is. As you see the extension going on. On Roberts, you realize that at the coal, the coal troubles seem to have sort of been circumvented and we're shipping coal and vast quantities. CNC ships develop the same worth of bits and pieces uses both coasts along the Gulf. That's my particular interest to steamships. Yes, they did pretty well. And the, and when I ended up earlier part of my talk, I mentioned how Gordon's idea had been for a national transportation system, not just a real. And I don't know how many of you here have ever heard of the Canadian government, Merchant Marine. But this was the merchant marine arm of Acadia National Railways, and I'm working on something unknown, then. This book is called the People's railway, and I'm calling my book The People's ships. These were 63 ships that were built in Canada, right at the end of World War One. And they were going to be operated entirely the same way as a real liberal public ownership. And they were run by by an arm of Canadian National. And they also ran more ferries and car ferries, not so much favorites on the Great Lakes. Canaan northern tried the freighters and sold them during the war. and Canadian National never really got back into running breakers in the Great Lakes, but they weren't cartherics Like, and in fact, CNN Marine, which is BC Ferries counterpart on the East Coast, was a sea and operations as well. And it's now a totally autonomous corporation called Marine Atlantic

Unknown Speaker 1:27:39
remote the ferries mostly

Unknown Speaker 1:27:42
to principles. And that's pretty vague, you know that there was other boats in the principles as well, there was the old principles Prince George conserver. Know, Henry, Henry was Henry, George and John, were they were the three that were built in the 1930s. They incidentally had had stellar careers in the Royal Canadian Navy during World War Two. And in fact, were probably the most successful warships ever operated in Canada. You don't hear very much out. There crews had reunions that just the other day last month or last year. They didn't operate as many but there's more names than just those the new ones. You know, there's Prince John, Prince Charles. And they had taken over and Tony's question, you know how we took them over the head taken over a company called the Grand Trunk Pacific Coast steamship, which started in 1910, with a with a man with St. Louis and Kansas, and some of his descendants. So it wasn't it wasn't quite as good as a car. One of the problems was there hanging foreign universities, extravagant. And as extravagances were in three ways, luxury hotels, luxury passenger rail, and the three luxury principles. And those eventually brought about his downfall. At the time of the Depression, he died, you're angry and upset.

Unknown Speaker 1:29:16
The benefits of land grabs and so forth in exchange for building its relevance. So great. Has there been any concerted effort made to get any of them back on the mind shutdown?

Unknown Speaker 1:29:31
This is a highly interesting point. And it's a point that I've tried to make. The natives are having more luck. And in fact, as far as I know, we're the only people who tried who have tried this approach. They have come to the government to meet a national and the government and it's larger Canadian National because because it seems that we're more gripping or stands more effective. They have come back to the government said, we leased your lands to you or, or sold to you for railway purposes. If these lands are no longer used for real purposes, then they should revert to their original owners. I think it's a very valid point to be made here. It would it could be the death knell, perhaps from Marathon rail to the CP side of things. And it will result in an enormous amount of Qaeda national land being turned back either to the crown or or to predict the negatives. I have heard very little comment outside of the native groups about this. Like, I don't really know, you find that surprising? Yeah, I do. Really. You find people people will argue that you know, the enormous amounts of money that was given to the railways, and perhaps you see that that can come back. But why mission lost a lock onto the land grabs something really escapes me? Well, the Crown could remember that presume of the person who granted land in the first place. Ron trunk, in the earliest days tended to get money rather than land. And they would dhikr and this is part of the whole process because the landowners were perfectly willing to sell land at inflated rates. So Grand Trunk that would get the money from the public purse. CPR did to when the Canadian order was was starting up, that money had dried up. And so that's when the land grant aspect became much more important and much more necessary. And and so that's so they were granted either federally, but by the time the Canadian Northern, and hence Canadian National, it was graduated was done by provinces, so it'd be a provincial matter. And the one of the interesting features is that Canadian northern Pacific which was the branch of the paid in arm, built in BC, the BC government was adamant that because I mentioned Colonel McNab or Sir Sir Alan McNabb and his politics as my are really just my politics. He was there. The way they were able to get money was to have the railway and I forget the length, over 50 Miles was being constructed for the good of the country. And it was specifically to go to the country not to go to the province when the cane in North Pacific was being built in British Columbia, the British Columbia government smart enough said we will provide you money we will provide you lens on the understanding that nothing in your contract nothing in your in your charter, anything says that you are really to the advantage of Canada. And in fact, that lasted until 1916 located in Gordon started to require enormous amounts of funding. Funding could only come from the federal government. And so that was wiped out from its charter. So the problem is is always starting about 1910 saw this pitfall and started to say let's protect our own property here. If we give the property we expected it to be run under our rules but BC wanted to do with us of course was to regulate rates and that's what it comes down to is a regulation of rates we do have a competition or do you do it by regulation

Unknown Speaker 1:33:16
if you return you're looking at the near future wasn't too long ago I saw an article in the paper they're talking about chain but as far as main lines were concerned used to benefit we were looking at in about a year and a half and what 18 months