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Native Art

Reg Ashwell, 2002




Unknown Speaker 0:06
seconds to get the mic set up for rich wireless mic and then we'll start it's my pleasure this afternoon to introduce to you read Jash. Well, who I know and on Saltspring for quite a few years, probably is in theory 70s Maybe a little later than that. But now reg doesn't live on salts radiography. He's left us and solidaire was born in Prince Rupert. So his life in Paris for the professional writer on West Coast artifacts of art, the founder of the Pegasus gallery in downtown Ganges, and worked closely at the belt the coast with various native tribes have been making their art and their historical art. He also is an author of some of his books have been published and provided to elementary schools, middle schools for their alliance of native art for the West Coast. Ranch was very delighted to come with iPhone over the house if you'd like to come and speak to us today. And he's come all the way from Seoul there to share his knowledge and expertise. Its understanding of West Coast art. Welcome back Salisbury rich

Unknown Speaker 1:34
first of all, can you all hear me? Can everybody hear me? It gives me great pleasure to be here to talk with you today. Because Indian art Northwest Coast Indian art Pacific Northwest coast, you're supposed to say now is is been my collecting it writing about it. And attending Indian potlatches has been my my great pleasure all these many years. And talking about it is fun. Now the reason I wore this jacket, you're going to say to yourself, why is he wearing a Cree Indian jacket when he's talking about Pacific Northwest co star. The reason is, I just want to make it clear. And you can tell after the talk when you come up and examine some of this beadwork on here that aren't all it's not just our Pacific Northwest coast. They are the most famous, it's a world art form now. We're very proud of that. But all the Indians of North and South America were very creative people. They were artistic. And when you study the beadwork and the design on this jacket

Unknown Speaker 2:48
I hope you will you'll realize that they do upon nature. sunbursts the forest, the trees, the wildflowers, the mountains, they drew upon that for their ideas

Unknown Speaker 3:06
for their art, and particularly birds and animals and and that the art was never more prolific or more beautiful than in the Pacific Northwest. And one thing that might surprise you is that the the art of the different tribes was quite different. For example, sailing shark was different to quite the authority. And Claudio thought was very different to say hi door since Yeah. And so when you first get into it, everything seems the same. That it looks like Indian art Northwest coast. But it all seems the same. But once you begin to study it, you begin to understand it, you separate the art of one tribe to another, for example, the sailors who came to the coastal areas last with their art form was the least developed. If they'd had another 100 years, their art would have been on a par with the northern tribes. So it is thought and and I believe that the Salish were a breakaway tribe from the interior Salish and they had a very, very harsh life. The winters were very, very cold they had in some areas they had to partially live underground, they would scoop out great, great cavities in the earth and put a kind of a teepee over the top. And there was no time to practice the arts. But they were a very creative people well, what we call a Coast Salish who broke away and and settled In the coldness south coast of British Columbia, and also in the state of Washington, in the coastal areas there. They hadn't had time to develop an art form. They they carved, welcoming figures to welcome people to their village. And they, they, they did a little carving, but they really weren't into it that far. We, as I say they were, they had become closely affected by the, by the other tribes and their art. And, and they were emulating it and they were into a period of change. And as they say, if they'd have been left alone, another 100 years, you just seen sailing shark would have really blossom. And as it was that they, they, they had an art form and, and they did a little carving, and they were most famous, of course for their weaving, they will these beautiful blankets out of mountain goat world and, and, and duck down in anything they could really get. And they had a little woolly dog, which is extinct now. And they and they had all these dogs and they shared their woolly fur and wove these wonderful blankets, that we get a little thing, while I'm talking about the different tribes, you know, we used to call the napkin Indians of the west coast of Southern Vancouver Island. Can you all hear me the napkin Indians of the west coast of Southern Vancouver Islands, they had an art form all their own, it was quite distinct from from the more northern tribes. And we don't call them Nutkin anymore. By the way, it's now new channels. That was Captain Cook's great mistake. He heard the word. And he thought that they were referring to themselves as a people and they weren't. I just forget what that actually means in their language, but they did not like that name. And now after all these many years, it has changed to new channels. In fact, nearly all these names of the of the Indian tribes of the Pacific Northwest, the pronunciations have changed quite a bit. And the coagulate for example, who used to be called Kwakiutl. Have an it's a new pronunciation that I haven't mastered yet. It goes something like Coco or something like that. And, and I haven't quite mastered how to pronounce it. But many of the many of the other regular people won't even use it. Richard Hunt, for example, the famous Carver, he uses his old white guilt, pronunciation. And but, but I realized if I start writing about Indian art again, I'm going to get back to have all these pronunciations figured out, because it's all changed. Anyway, I'm taking this off, it's hot. And I I just worked so you can see beautiful designs. And you've come up after it's finished, finished speaking and examined this jacket. It is a beautiful thing. They work that was done by a lady. Oh, thank you very much. It's got too small for me. They can't even get into the problem. Glad to be relevant for the time being but it's a lovely Jade. She made that for me about 40 years ago. Oh great to be able to study it, study the patterns, the complexities of that beadwork, it's just amazing. And this this beautiful totem pole here just shows you I want you to examine it after the talk what what they can do this is a Thunderbird holding his copper. The copper was like thank you very much. The copper was late your clan crest, you know you know, in Europe and Britain they had their coats of arms. Well, the copper was kind of an Indian coat of arms. And the artists here has has made literally made a copper they always had this raised t here and the crest here in this case the crest the Thunderbird has his own crest which is the Thunderbird but these coppers were quite large by the way it looks small because it's a model of Sodom, but most of the coppers when you had your clan crest copper were, were old, you know, perhaps three feet high. And, and they were just like the copy you see here. But so here's you see a Thunderbird beautifully carved and holding his copper just gives you an idea of what a great art form this was. And before I get any more into the car, they're carving and that sort of thing. I want to just mentioned that we had I think it was five tribes altogether we that are into this we first there was Pacific Northwest ours, you have your Salish, which I already mentioned them, and, and your and your new channels used to be nicked him that's too and then a little fourth further north. higher up on the coast around a friendly coat for grouper, worthy, quite beautiful, peculiar and their art form. I really should have started at the top and work down I think because the art form gets progressively more complex as you go north, the crag you have borrowed heavily from the Haida and the Tlingit to the north of them. But they had their own distinctive style. This is quite good. They had their own distinctive style. And they were much more flamboyant than the other artists. They love bright color and lots of it. Whereas the Haida and Tlingit, and the more northern tribes would stick to maybe two or three colors, for example, black and red, maybe a little green or blue, the wagyu, the Kwakiutl are quite good, I would use any colors. They concentrate on about five there was black, yellow, white, red, blue, but they would use any color that they liked. But they the work was fun, buoyant, it was theatrical. It was it's my favorite to be honest with you, even though it's not the further north you get, the more sophisticated the art became. But their art was so wild. And so exciting. And, and I really liked the quaint Youth Art very, very much. And it's my when I'm collecting or when I was collecting a concentrated a lot on on the art of the quite real people. Even their totem poles didn't really appear until, believe it or not. They're welcoming figures, they're their totems didn't appear in front of their long houses and on the beaches until in the late 1800s.

Unknown Speaker 13:07
The the early explorers, we go a little further north. Now we find the Klingon country and Alaska and northern coastal British Columbia. And we find that the height is on Haida gwai, which is the Queen Charlotte Islands. They don't like it being called the Queen Charlotte Islands. They were named by Captain Dixon after his flagship, the Queen Charlotte. And they have never accepted that and they don't like it. So they refer to it. There's no big deal, of course, but they would much rather you called his height of why? Well, the height of why they add height of why the height Indians and the sling get in Alaska. They, they were much the art had reached an absolute. They're there. They use color very, very sparingly. But the art had a complexity that it's very hard to to explain it. They were if you study old photographs of these old totems, they were every bit as good as what the modern height and Klingon are doing today. You ask yourself how did they do it? For example, you see a height a totem pole of yesteryear, it may be moldering away, and the wood is rotting, but the power and beauty is is always there. And I was particularly struck in very old polls they had no compass and people ask themselves how did they get the eyes so wrong? The eyes of the birds or animals are various figures on the Totems are are just as round as you could meet with Any companies we don't know how they did it, but they did. And but anyway, traveling north as I say, we come to the high tide of why and we come to the the Pingat in Alaska and on the northern coast of BC there were just not very many just a few hundreds lingered in, in British Columbia and it is said I've read this by early historians and I don't know whether it's totally accurate that originally you go away back in time, the height of borrowed heavily from the Klingon, they reached their own distinctive art form, which was quite quite different to the trinket people but at the same time they they borrowed from them and develop their art from the art of the sling get people and then we have the the Bella Coola. Now, the better cooler people

Unknown Speaker 16:18
here again, this is conjecture, it's never been really totally proven, but we think that they broke away from the Coast Salish, Shuar settling in where, where I told you and they, they came up into quad view of country and, and they, there's a kind of an inlet goes in there and they just about they occupied that area and they just about split the great Gilson area in half, they penetrated so far in and that's probably why they're their art is so similar to the quad view of it are quite futile. Because they they were so affected by the art of these people, and they had no not too much of an art form of their own. And, and they develop Bella Coola art. And Bella cool art fascinates a lot of people, it is like the quite the authority, and yet there are a lot of differences. And, and but they loved strong color, and their, the the emulated the art and and changed it according to their own suited them. So we have a one I haven't mentioned yet is the art of the Tsimshian people. The Tsimshian people, I mean, I've habit in my books here and you can find it anywhere. The exact locations of all these drives, you know, and I can read them out too if you want me to. But the Tsimshian there, they occupied the territory from Prince Rupert up the Skeena river. And, and then they the titles change we have what we call initiatives and then a little further along where the Skeena meets the Bulkley we have the the let me see what get cassette. So we've got some Hsien Niska and get cassette all go as you travel along the skinny River, all the light one people to us, I can't tell their arch apart myself. That is that is where the Tsimshian art is pretty well lumped in as one by most people. But nevertheless, they were they were three distinctive peoples. And they and they created got along very well with each other but they the Tsimshian were different to the gitksan and they were to the Nigut and they were different to games and to get this up. And there's a wonderful village that you probably heard on started up at Hazel. They have they've started a a we'll call it Tsimshian but it's really good cuz Sam it lump it all in together feel like they're so close with each other. But they've started this village and wonderful totems and long houses and the artists thriving and it's just tremendous. And the Tsimshian art and the others was a gentler art. We don't know why it was but it was a much softer, much gentler art than the Haida or the Klingon and and I don't really quite know how to describe it. It was very complex, and just as beautiful as Haida they're often compared with the height of there were the art of both peoples were very close that the Tsimshian I don't know. I don't really quite know how to describe why it is so different accepted that the bill Reid said it best when he said it's a gentler art which it is. So, so, so, you have the weather the Pacific Northwest coast, you have the Salish and and the new Chanyeol you have the quote Do you have the the Tsimshian and get consent and and so forth the initiative and you have the dimension height and you have the height and width length going from the top down which is better for me you have been Alaska your your Lincoln in northern in northern British Columbia or your Klingon and then you have your your Haida on the Haida Gwaii on the Queen's what we used to call a Queen Charlotte still officially the Queen Charlotte and you have the quadrilles northern coast of British Columbia up as far as port Rupert and port Hardy area Alert Bay and so you have your back you're learning you have your Bella Coola cutting in into almost dividing their territory and and you have the chance to open the Coast Salish. So I think that's five tribes isn't let's have a look here

Unknown Speaker 21:58
I don't want to leave any out anyone out in this

Unknown Speaker 22:07
you have heavy Klingon, your Haida Tsimshian, quite the altar for Google, your Bella Coola your your new channel used to be Nutkin and your co Salish. Those are the one to the evil got seven bands or tribes of Indians whose art was very, very different. One to the other. And, and, and it is it seems kind of Anna, Chris, and well, the word I'm looking for, it seems rather strange that the art has taken so long to be accepted as a world Art Forum, which is slow essentially is now Northwest Coast Indian artists coveted all over the world it's in. It's in great public parks. They have totem poles, they've commissioned Japan as a great country for commissioning commissioning Indian art, the United States all over North America, Britain, Europe, this art is coveted and in much demand. Whereas in those early days, they dismissed it as a primitive art. That was even described as as grotesque and at times, and, and they thought the Indians were worshipping these totem poles as idols and they weren't. And, and, you know, when we rail against this, and we get angry about it, we have to, of course, realize took me a long time. But we have to realize that people thought differently in those days, there was a whole different point of view. And when they occupied these Indian lands, they discourage the art. They they confiscated a lot of it, as you probably know, and they ridiculed it. And the result was if these things hadn't happened, and the art had been encouraged, and there hadn't been this terrible devastation caused by the smallpox, plague and various diseases, they caught up the white people, how different it would have been, the art would not have slept for 100 years. It would have carried on and developed as it was. There were very, very low periods of time when the art Believe it or not, almost disappeared altogether. It was just a handful of people, such as the great Mongol Martin who did so much at Thunderbird Park, Charlie James, his contemporary Elon Neil, his granddaughter, they were all quite happy. And later on, you know, we had people like Bill Reid and Robert Davidson and, and the great Charles Edenshaw, who did a tremendous lot. But this little handful of artists and, and people who saw the light and realize what a great art form it was, somehow kept it going. Now it's flourishing to such an extent I tell you, everywhere you go, you see Northwest coast, Indian art is so famous, so popular. And I fell in love all the way back about 1958. I was born in Prince Rupert was a month old when I got taken to Vancouver. And I grew up not knowing anything about Indians or Indian Arctic set what I saw in my textbooks, what started me off was that I will be doing for time. Just tell you this, and I'll finish up. What really started me off was that I ran a resort for for about five years. And I began finding these exquisitely carved arrowheads in the sand. Because it had been an Indian village, there were all these keep weedy holes, as they call them, where they used to build, they're a kind of a teepee. And the rains would bring up this beautiful arrowheads, and they would look at them and think how the time it took these precision beautifully chipped out pieces of Flint, you know, so shape, well shaped, farmers found out I was interested, they began bringing me bowls and pastels made of stone, some of them beautifully made. When they plowed them up in their fields. Firstly, you know, I had a museum going in my camp store there. And that got me interested in the the art of the Pacific Northwest. And every chance I got, I would hunt for totem poles, even then they were getting expensive and hard to get your hands on. I used to hunt the empty stores, I used to go anywhere and everywhere that I could find a mask or a totem, you know that I that I covered it. And the result was that when I moved back to the coast, I simply made it my life. I just made it my lifelong ambition to collect the art to write about it, to enjoy it, you get to a stage where you covered it. And I was always poverty stricken and in the hole spending so much is my friends can tell you and and I'm glad that I was it turned out that over the years I was so much a part of it. But if you're really interested in this art, you really want to find out more about it. I suggest you take time out to go to museums, particularly the Royal British Columbian Museum in Victoria and, and study the art and just see what they've accomplished. Not just present day but in the past. And maybe you'll get as interested as I am. I hope you don't impart me your barbarous yourselves like I but I think that I should wind this up. Now when I get talking on this subject. There's no stopping me. Any questions anything by the end? Great to know.

Unknown Speaker 28:44
Is there any evidence of which sex Did the owner to male or female and

Unknown Speaker 28:52
I can't hear you ever Well,

Unknown Speaker 28:55
was it man are men and women that did the hard in the seven times?

Unknown Speaker 28:59
It was the men the women did we've exquisitely beautiful baskets, which was an art form in itself. It

Unknown Speaker 29:08
was much softer. I was wondering if the women had some influence

Unknown Speaker 29:13
on that art.

Unknown Speaker 29:15
That was much softer

Unknown Speaker 29:17
Yes, it was much so. Do you think they did? I don't know. I don't I don't seem to be getting here. I thought I had this on

Unknown Speaker 29:34
righty that won't receive it.

Unknown Speaker 29:37
Oh, I see. Oh, I see. Anybody have any questions speak loud. I forgot my hearing aids.

Unknown Speaker 29:54
Well, I thought I said as much about them as I did about anyone else. Well, it was a it. The the I haven't totally answered your question here, but just do that. There are women carvers now, you know, Ellen Neil, who was Charlie James, white guilt, granddaughter did a tremendous lot to bring the art back. And she carved magnificent totems. But there were very few. And in the real old days, they were none at all except for for as far as we know, except for the weeding of blankets and the, and the making of the Battle of the basketry. You know, they're all of it comes from grass, roots, roots, so forth. And they they're highly collectible today and magnificent works of art, the art of basketry almost died. But it's made a tremendous comeback. And it was a man, a man with a ranch or a farm name all over his name. He got killed in a car crash went on a tour of England anyway, which is a tragedy because he, he started them doing it again in the interior, you know, because interior Salish weaving so, so tremendous. And he started up started them doing it again, he gave them free use of the wool from his sheep, you know, and they started breathing again. And that's a flourishing business now. But now we've got Frida dz, she cards, he's a wonderful Carver. We've got and of course, Ellen Neil is dead. She died tragically at the age of 49. But so women are into it now. But the further back you go, the less they were. It's a pleasure.

Unknown Speaker 31:50
I'm curious about this one, if you consider non native, it changes decade to decade. And it seems to me that an artist wouldn't be particularly worried about making his way out of his grandfather. And yet with native art, I think there must be some pressure to do that. To keep it traditional.

Unknown Speaker 32:10
There is you brought up a very good point there believe me? Well, it was but it isn't any longer or very little anyway, at one time, you know, the museum's they discouraged the Indians from reviving their their art to any degree. They said that that was in the past. And that was the way it was, and the great age of Indian art is long since over, you know. And, and if a promising young Carver came on the scene and began to show his work, they would they would go go after him, you know, you must repeat what your ancestors did. Or or we don't want any part of it, you know, you use. For example, the you know, in their design, they were great on the placing of opioids and circles, you know, split use opioids, and, and, and, and so forth, not much in the way of circles on this, but they do use them a lot. And and I remember Peter McNair, who used to was the curator at the museum once time telling the great Tony Hunter, you've got he did a model poll. And that was being shown off of the arts of the Raven Gallery, which was his gallery. And Peter said to Him, you've got that you've got that ovoid, upside down. And Tony turned on him and said it may be upside down to you, but it's not upside down to me. He said we changes our lives and surroundings change. And we don't stand still we are an innovative people. If it looks better the way I've gotten, then that's the way it is. So there was quite a controversy. The people like Robert Davidson, Bill Reid, that Ellen Nealon particularly went after the museums and said, you know, this isn't an art frozen in time. We changes our lives and surroundings change and and, and we tried to keep the art reasonably traditional. But, but not to stand still in time, you know. And that's all over now. The museums are collecting the art and in encouraging talented artists. And so the art is no longer frozen in time. And which was a pity they did this you know, because I remember the great Patrick Blair, despite the Irish name he was he was a wonderful Haida Carver that exquisitely bitter work, and yet at the age of 26, but anyway, he was so innovative. He used to do these incredibly innovative work, which would was so beautiful. I should have bought a little isolate told him I have to show you just what he turned out. And, and they would criticize it, you know? Yeah, it's beautiful. And they didn't know what to do. They didn't understand. At the Provincial Museum. They would say, we like what you're doing. It's very beautiful. But you have, you have changed, you've done this, you've done that and criticized him, you know, for not for, as I say, for not sticking to the tradition of the past. And now they collect his work for all their work at seven inch total of this little isolate total, recently sold for $10,000. It just goes to show you, you know, that even museums can be wrong. And any more questions and all lots of

Unknown Speaker 36:19
point on I don't know whether you've ever seen

Unknown Speaker 36:22
No? I haven't. It's been there were boats full for your point. Oh

Unknown Speaker 36:39
don't start obviously stood at one time. And on the

Unknown Speaker 36:44
top was almost like a ceremonial basis.

Unknown Speaker 36:53
They did there were the stones ceremonial basins. I saw one. Where was it? No, it was it was just off the coast on a little on a little island. I just forget exactly where it was many years ago. It wasn't a carving or anything, though, you know, it, it had obviously been scooped out of this stone to form a like a, a. Well, as you say, a basin, it was a piece of rock that had been scooped and charted, carved out, you know, to form a smooth and very round basin. But nobody really knows why it was done. But it'd be Salish? Yeah, it would be sailors. It was all Salish around here. But as they say, they the Salish people didn't live very much on salt. I believe there was a village in the south end. But they didn't. They they came, they came here an awful lot. They came to pick berries and season you know, or dig for clams or do whatever they they came and stayed for weeks at a time, but then they left. And there was no great occupation of Salt Spring by, by by the sage people. There were here but only a few. As they say they came in season for to gather their berries and food or whatever. And stayed for weeks at a time. But they didn't actually settle here much. Anyone else

Unknown Speaker 38:39
on the West Coast are lost when they got iron or steel tools. as well.

Unknown Speaker 38:49
That improved the art. Yeah, oh, yeah, it actually a lot of people don't realize this, but the there was a period. You know, before this, so many died from plagues, and smallpox and diseases and so forth. And their numbers were so reduced. But there was a period when when the culture really, really, if I might use the word prospered and with a white occupation, because they had access, as you say, to these sophisticated tools, you know, and they didn't have to use stone adzes or anything like that anymore, you know, and, and they were very quick to pick up on that sort of thing. And, and the art really flourished for a while. I think what really killed it more than anything was were these plagues that affected the Indians have, for example. Smallpox reduced the hider from about some of the estimates go as high as 6000 Even 10,000 At the time, when the captain Dixon first sailed to the to the Queen Charlotte's, but in no time at all, they were down to 400 you can just imagine, they're all these villages, they ran away from them there, they died, they flies everywhere, and abandoned their villages. And they finally said, we're about 20 villages. And they finally wound up in to Skidegate massacre. And the missionaries moved in on them and, and started this thing about, you know, that discourage the art a great deal. And, and I played, they're up to about 2000. Now it's getting better all the time. But just gives you an idea of the devastation from these from these diseases and plagues that hit particularly the small ball. Does that answer your question? Pretty well. What about you, addict? You wanted to say so.

Unknown Speaker 41:18
Receipt? And also, what about wonders and things? Like

Unknown Speaker 41:31
that, what about what I didn't quite get that painting portraits

Unknown Speaker 41:38
of victims of ceremonies?

Unknown Speaker 41:44
Were there any natives? Well, you know, that they painted their masks and totem poles within wonderful design? No, no, they there were great white artists that captured them, like Emily Carr, for example. You know, but but so far as I know, that they they did painted designs, you know, like they made these giant screens out of planks of wood and then painted them. But they didn't, so far as I know. They painted more. It was it was almost like abstract. You know, they they did these wonderful designs and paintings of birds and animals. And and as you see they have this wonderful, complex designs on them. But apart from giant screens, the Klingons are particularly good at that. I never heard of any. They didn't paint portraits of each other.

Unknown Speaker 42:54
Like, there is I don't know they are

Unknown Speaker 42:59
you all in modern days? Yeah. Yeah, they have started to do it. A bill Helene is, is doing wonderful paintings of the past, you know. For example, He paint stories. You know, like, there's one he painted on what he calls. I think he called it Mother Earth. And that's a beautiful thing you ever saw. And but that's new. It's just begun to happen. Among

Unknown Speaker 43:32
I wonder if maybe it was Sunday, they would magic it might have been if you've painted somebody's portrait, you will then have them in your power. A lot of places in the world.

Unknown Speaker 43:42
I know they do that. But the Indians were like that. They may not have been photographed. No, yeah,

Unknown Speaker 43:48
I bet that's why they didn't. It might

Unknown Speaker 43:51
well have been. Yeah. But I been in museums. I've seen many, many private collections. And I haven't come across Indian paintings of people. As such, you know, or, or even even scenes as we think of them lakes and rivers and mountains. They were more inclined to to, to do this type of work, which I mean, you know that that is similar to an eagle. It's the mythological Thunderbird. These are his, his horns. These are his horns of power. And he wasn't really an eagle at all. There's about five times the size of an eagle, and he's totally mythological. And, and he when he blinked his eyes there was there was lightning when He flapped his wings. There was thunder and and he was a very powerful bird that did wonderful things. But he didn't exist. He was he something triggered this. This mythological burden of Then all the tribes had it, and had this incredible Thunderbird, which looks something like an eagle, but had all these powers. And it was this sort of thing. Like, for example, we had the zoo Gwah, the wild woman of the woods, you know, the cannibal woman that lives in the woods. And she was a person and a very real to the quality of people. And and she used she was a cannibal woman, she she used to let out these awful cries which terrified the village, she would kidnap people and eat them seem particularly fond of children. And it's all mythology. But that something must have happened in the past that triggered the story, you know? So yeah, so you had your wild woman. But I think now the you're going to find it the modern Carver's are doing just what you're talking about. Robert Davidson, and others, great Carver's and artists, you know, they were into everything when they wait, but when they would soon as the Indians made contact with a white man, they got fascinated by jewelry like silver and gold. And they began to make these beautiful bracelets, you know, pounding down with coins and, and making exquisitely exquisitely beautiful pieces out of them. Until and finally, of course, they got their hands on bars of silver and gold. So they'll work in any medium, they just, they, they like change, they innovate. And thank heaven, they're not standing still in time anymore. All that is over. Anyone else that I missed? Yesterday

Unknown Speaker 46:51
to mention two places that I think it's really good to visit. One of them is the topology at UBC. And the other one is the center and what do you see people actually practicing?

Unknown Speaker 47:03
I should have mentioned those that they are terrific places to go. Absolutely. UBC has an incredible collection of wonderful things to see. And we're really inspiring place to go. Believe me. I don't think