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Tom Toynbee

Tom Toynbee, son of Richard Toynbee and Jessie Mouat Toynbee

president of Mouat’s 1971 -

development of core area
sewer conflict

Discussion with Jacqueline Watson for the book Stuck on an Island

Accession Number Interviewer Jacqueline Watson
Date May 13, 1996 Location
Media cassette tape Audio CD mp3 √
ID 148 Duration 21 min.




Unknown Speaker 0:03
There's one little correction you have it there.

Unknown Speaker 0:06
I'm going to write this down

Unknown Speaker 0:18
on that paragraph where it says have you been in the trading post yet

Unknown Speaker 0:27
okay, I've marked it in here as McPhillips Avenue not Hereford you did you've got that reading it I went through the rest of it

Unknown Speaker 0:52
by the way we're the first people on hand when Jack had his attack fatal attack makes phone that we've been with before she called Jack her voice and she said yes there was nothing we could do

Unknown Speaker 1:20
very sad. We just got to know them well and we were neighbors of course we were living in their tribal

Unknown Speaker 1:31
I remember you manage

Unknown Speaker 1:40
became in September 71 It was four and a half years and we left in September of 76. A pardon me February of 76.

Unknown Speaker 1:56
Something that worked out fairly well for us because when we moved over from Vancouver actually we still haven't sold our house in Vancouver the market was very weak and we had a great spot in China right in the middle but we had to leave our furniture and the agency will never sell

Unknown Speaker 2:23
furniture we've actually moved to America kind of a credit card table in the kitchen and so we moved there in September but about the middle of September we finally sold sold the house for 65 130 by 130 It's so ridiculous now the lock prices are a lot

Unknown Speaker 3:05
we struggled

Unknown Speaker 3:12
we didn't want to own offspring America wants to buy because we were in the state

Unknown Speaker 3:27
restore Barbara 69 and Vic really felt that the retail business wasn't his thing. He wanted to get back into real estate discovery be real

Unknown Speaker 3:58
I think

Unknown Speaker 4:04
71 It was I think it was after Jeff died

Unknown Speaker 4:16
so we had already bought the votes for leaving. I put my name to rent the place and was

Unknown Speaker 4:29
pretty informal that worked really called resident manager sort of caretaker look after the place for the winter cottages and cut the grass that sort of thing. So we did that but of course as time went by progressively a char in the cabinets clean that area and that was Section 69 all the changes that

Unknown Speaker 5:15
took place gradually

Unknown Speaker 5:20
that accurate

Unknown Speaker 5:22
it is pretty accurate we can deal with

Unknown Speaker 5:33
the description

Unknown Speaker 5:40
are you aware Good Morning America Canada for two hours in Victoria fantastic

Unknown Speaker 5:54
video ABC

Unknown Speaker 6:00
they're going on the Jasper

Unknown Speaker 6:02
that's great for Canadian tourism such

Unknown Speaker 6:08
I guess they taped yesterday for today the plan segments and when I started watching it because I knew and it was very gray and dark but then as the program progressed it got sunnier and sunnier and really pretty good by this by the time the program they did segments of the American graph Dodgers Hornby Island

Unknown Speaker 6:49
restaurant chef

Unknown Speaker 6:53
cooking and it was it was fancy and they had the bagpipers when they had the double decker efforts that was the Saturday I really got in the car they didn't miss trip it's really interesting to see how they come into a town a couple of years ago

Unknown Speaker 7:31
I got off track but so you feel that that's okay man

Unknown Speaker 7:47
No, I thought that was pretty good a lot of this you got from Ivan?

Unknown Speaker 7:55

Unknown Speaker 8:05
I know he questioned his Centennial information he says we're a few years old changed a few years ago that was 69. To change.

Unknown Speaker 8:33
Where it says we were managers of America property very short time was actually quite a long time. It's on page three, four seconds

Unknown Speaker 8:51
this paragraph

Unknown Speaker 8:57
actually, where it says under terms in the last paragraph or under John's leadership in the 70s, the company applied for government. In fact, it wasn't but that was done before I got here. The landfill was created in 1970. When we arrived here the landfill has been

Unknown Speaker 9:26
under your leadership, tell me

Unknown Speaker 9:34
when I arrived here, we're lucky dollars store has built which became KNR.

Unknown Speaker 9:45
And the post office now Jitterbug has been created. And then when we arrived those were just just finished actually. We started took over and then It worked with me as a as our truck driver, Saturday barely be a truck driver near the chauffeur's license, used to haul our building materials. And he would be hauling four to five days a week in Vancouver, Victoria. That was his role materials

Unknown Speaker 10:23
for the resale lumber and building materials. Actually, we found when I arrived, we had real financial problems. Muddy giving too much going

Unknown Speaker 10:41
on sounds familiar.

Unknown Speaker 10:44
So sit down and devise a plan because we were way way overdue with some of our suppliers. Our accounts receivable were really slow, which was a typical so we had to set up things in order to stabilize our financing plan give some comfort to the creditors.

Unknown Speaker 11:13
So you haven't handled

Unknown Speaker 11:19
what I arrived here, that can I sat down before there's only one thing for us to get paid for over a year without any

Unknown Speaker 11:41
resource we really had to show

Unknown Speaker 11:46
credit to the creditors.

Unknown Speaker 11:49
So that's what we did. Here we started to take a modest hopefully the later days when things were going to get better. And then gradually the developments took place after that built the business at the same time or upgrade the old building was pretty old.

Unknown Speaker 12:15
So Now

Unknown Speaker 12:21
granted, going into two storey buildings which was

Unknown Speaker 12:38
1976 Poor beneath was a mistake there. On the same page there the actually the four beneath Mo was was revamped to a mall in 1972. And then in 77 the warehouse where you've honored to be in addition 77 removed our building supply operation Rainbow Road.

Unknown Speaker 13:20
Windsor plywood is today. And when we moved it out of here the idea was always to get the heavy goods away from the point here because this was obviously the motor retail area and the waterfront and so I'm trying to develop that. So when we move the lumberyard in 76 We then went to work and did this renovation and expanded the 77 over the piling the building over the sewer system which comes up later

Unknown Speaker 14:02
did I show you these are these are really useful

Unknown Speaker 14:22
show me the picture

Unknown Speaker 14:46
a landfill Centennial Park which was the dredging of the material to create the boat base because that was a very very shallow bay is a very gentle slope about flat They took that silt, pumped it up onto the land, but then that became a piece of land that was owned at them by the provincial government once it was put in place because Saturn sat on provincial land or beach

Unknown Speaker 15:18
Did you own any surrounding area did anything

Unknown Speaker 15:26
join something that was owned by, by nor more than criminal but it wasn't, was part of our operation. Gracepoint at that time was owned by I guess at that time was owned by Pharrell and Pringle would have been owned by Apple and in this time would have been owned by horrorland, Pringle 65. They own the Gracepoint property. They own the garage here. And then normal was bought out Charlie Horos interest in the property and it became norm and Rob norms, brother in law. So they own that and they were the ones who eventually sold it to the people

Unknown Speaker 16:18
I bet there were two

Unknown Speaker 16:20
there were several that were added over time

Unknown Speaker 16:24
for the storage tanks for

Unknown Speaker 16:27
gasoline, oil, diesel oil, gasoline largely

Unknown Speaker 16:33
Well, what I'm really concentrating on this is interesting because

Unknown Speaker 16:38
Centennial Park was acquitted that what happened is that once this land was created, I believe the local chamber of commerce as to lease the land for the purposes of building and they got the leads from the provincial government for a year and then the public because it was the Canadian Centennial and making 67 public came in to make this a public park. So it was called Centennial Park. Centennial and people join the society it was either $1 or $2 a year you join this society people contribute time and trees and so on and that's the original

Unknown Speaker 17:30
what I'm interested in now is from the 70s

Unknown Speaker 17:38
I might have that just before you see that same 71 This building has been completed revenge lucky. So these are the progression a lot of people we've had some of the criticisms that have been made said that we were the ones who did all this landfill games as well. The truth is the first one was a fireball. The second one was this the big one is this one. And that was the provincial That's right. The third one was this one is when we did this all took place over a period of about five years. The third

Unknown Speaker 18:15
one was more or less this area that's where all the core parking core area is. Building

Unknown Speaker 18:35
those are those are very interesting because by memories are always reliable. rageous

Unknown Speaker 18:55
Okay, well changed. Okay. I rewritten a section of this already. And I'd like you after reading a little bit more. This part about Yvette Valcourt. I've rewritten. So why don't you take a look? Yeah, that's

Unknown Speaker 19:24
the timing of this portion here on the question on Gulfport zoning. I wasn't here when the zoning was actually established on Saltspring. But there were some very peculiar things at that time. But I do remember this, I think Dec my brother would verify this that he supported the valid courts zoning that they had a right to commercial designation for the property they were then And then a commercial use. I remember that he gets rid of the zoning actually came down. The landfill that we created was zoned WaterLife even though it was waterlogged it was waterlogged, I suppose the time to start the exercise. By the time they finished it, it was a landfill, it certainly wasn't watered and yet the zoning was waterlogged. Which

Unknown Speaker 20:32
can be commercial? No.

Unknown Speaker 20:34
So we ended up having to get ours all results. At that time, they were not the only people. That problem we ended up having we went for rezoning. And eventually, the idea was it was to be zoned for present use when we got it. Well, the ironic thing is when the zoning was done, they actually zoned as a rural property that had been used for 6070 years as commercial is this CRD CRD? That was before the islands. So there were a lot of people who were caught up in this. And of course, we were frankly, pretty worried about this because we were trying to do we were trying to finance this thing. When you go to a lender and they say, well, what's the zoning for your property? Well, water law. We could at that stage. We could not borrow money from a bank, it was absolutely possible that we ended up going to the Federal Business Development Bank, the lender of last resort, we can't get it anywhere else. That's what we find.

Unknown Speaker 21:56
So are you saying that because you were in the infant stages, so many people were inexperienced. I do some of that. Over inexperience with the zoning. That's why there was a discrepancy in that. And that affected the valve.

Unknown Speaker 22:19
Yes, yeah, they did. And as I say it's quite sure Dick actually supported their case. I wasn't here. This would be

Unknown Speaker 22:30
your saying this is early.

Unknown Speaker 22:34
I think it came in the zoning came in about seven. And the ironic thing, Jackie was foresaw problems and he started building this building, which became Ben's lucky dollar. Yes. He started to build and applied for his building permits started to build before he got into a big battle with the buildings. But

Unknown Speaker 23:02
that's what the article was about.

Unknown Speaker 23:04
And the talk he really foresaw, I guess, unless he moved quickly, with the zoning come down, we could have a real marriage problem. And then the interesting part that Ben's lucky dollar when we bought the store, I say we because Dr. Barber for the principal investor when it started out, I came in more later on as normal and then was, was going to be a stable tenant in the basement of the building. That's where it is stored downstairs. But that was it had been owned by mowers. It was sold to the key employee Ben green. And then no sooner had got in here to represent him and Ben came and said, Well, you know, I have definitely store and they had not contemplated that he was squeezed themselves to get into to buy the place. And he said, well, people are after they would like to locate elsewhere. One of the locations that was at Central Park is that because of all the sewer problems and no parking in Ganges the idea was let's start a brand new center and say there was Vic having just bought it and then the key tenants of the person vitality to the center having Britain groceries. Gonna move on. So that was taken aback and sort of told him yes, we'll build you a story. And he was very, very anxious that was very worried that somebody else would do it and he was at the noncompetitive the gun was the road ahead and created this box out here, which was well aware of that everybody needed. It was done under the gun. And one thing you didn't do is instead of many capable of being historical, although it was only one story that started the foundation before the supplicant. So then it was used to battle it out.

Unknown Speaker 25:40
Well, this article,

Unknown Speaker 25:42
picture has a picture of this building the background on how they were unjustly treated by the Regional Director, and then went into the fact that this building has really received good progress. Again, I think you recorded same procedure. Now something

Unknown Speaker 26:16
Oh, that was an interesting one that was to do.

Unknown Speaker 26:25
After I gone to probably 72, you get a kick out of this to remind us of Charles, I remember this. And he was the federal government.

Unknown Speaker 26:52
So I was very present. We used to have people from Transport Canada, come over here or whatever was called the Ministry of Transport DLT, I think.

Unknown Speaker 27:01
And I said, was good to see you. He said, Well, maybe not so good, as you think.

Unknown Speaker 27:10
Why is that? Well, he said, You created the landfill here. So you didn't you didn't file for a Navigable Waters Protection Act. Oh, my God.

Unknown Speaker 27:28
That I mean, that would be I'm sure you give it Well, sounds like commissioners.

Unknown Speaker 27:34
This happened before I got what I was able to get this land. Having gotten to the point, having found a there was no parking. Somebody wasn't doing the grocery store wanted to move off, because there was no parking deck came to myself, I'd rather John Lee's and said, Would you be interested in putting some money into this venture because we really need to expand. We have a real problem here for the future. And we need to create parking. To secure this foodstore. So we to do this, we have to get property surrounding the bay, make sure that we control those otherwise, we would never get a lease. Because we build the land we put that riparian rights have the rights to water access to any of the landowners, so we had to buy the land or so that meant buying the crest restaurant, and little tiny place next door. And Jackie, if you can understand that the amount of land property that wetlands somebody purchases was so tiny, I mean, it would be a few 100 feet, a few 100 feet of land in which they don't care at the front of the building, that the balance of it was over water, which they leased for a trivial amount. So the old crest restaurant, the picture this

Unknown Speaker 29:19
example there is a crest restaurant. It used to be all in except the front of it. And at the front that have a piece of land that maybe was three or 400 square feet 500 square feet, that was lost.

Unknown Speaker 29:39
We had to buy it. We had to buy each of those. We had to buy the ship sank or in the tides because it had a waterlight lease going with it. So we had to buy their lease at the same time. So we got that at the same time. The Trading Company was We went very badly over the trading post, most people call it the trading post, it was actually software trading. They were having financial trouble. So they came to Dec and wanted to sell their shares. So, yeah, we were into this game by this, this stage and we thought, well, we better buy that too. Because then we really do have that side of the water covered. We already own the land near the river at the lumberyard. So we we did all these things, then Deckard, Adrian wolf Miller, do you remember him land surveyor, his son is land surveyor here now. Brian is there now. And the steps that you go through to landfill. We went back with Adrian and said, we wanted to have Adrian Cephalon letter, saying what he would do that would have to be posted. Rolando, because we're the science and we're making application to do this and had to be in the driftwood it had to be in the colonist of the Vancouver Sun,

Unknown Speaker 31:16
just putting in the dark like, exactly.

Unknown Speaker 31:20
Okay, went through all this was provincial is the province of British Columbia. That happened, then we could go ahead and the landfill

Unknown Speaker 31:34
situation, the landfill and then at the end of the landfill, do them bought the land from the problems we created then we would actually buy the land once it was great. That chicken as the very last at the very end of it, there are words like this in the letter, I will look to you, I will expect you to deal with the Navigable Waters Protection. Federal thing.

Unknown Speaker 32:07
So you're telling about the waters surrounding all this that you created?

Unknown Speaker 32:13
Because we wouldn't be filling this, we would be it wouldn't be navigable waters anymore, you see. So in other words, you have to get a permit from the federal government, as well as the provincial government. Now the fact that it was all advertised, it was all in the papers, and we were going to do this. That matters. What's the federal government didn't read that paragraph, I guess at the end of the letter that said. So when Mr. Brooke said to me, you haven't done this, what I said, My God, nothing is in place. We've got a building on. What does this mean? And he said, Well, Mr. Toynbee, quite frankly, most of the installations on the coast of British Columbia don't have these, but we're not happy with this situation.

Unknown Speaker 33:04
So he's, a buddy says we must regularize this and we are going to we are going future will have penalties for non compliance. So I went another thing. I've learned that he said, The firehall never filed for a Navigable Waters Protection Act permits. Well, this was 10 years or more. And he said, you, you will be doing a public service. I can remember the words. If you got that done at the same time. He said, I'm sure it won't cost much more in survey costs once it's being done for you.

Unknown Speaker 33:48
So I found the pirate realized. Of course, we want to get this thing. So I found the chairman of the DLP people have pointed this out. We're going to do we have to do we have to file for the permit.

Unknown Speaker 34:12
We'd be willing to pay for your certain disturbing costs, which we're not going to do much if you want us to do this. Yes, that's good. So we went ahead and made the application of course and it's advertised it's ridiculous. Here it is. It's already landfills in place. Well, who objected? Yvette Bella. She has texted this was a night. Suddenly she objected to somebody. I think it was she filed an objection. Now, they never told me who objected federal government but I know what she had a couple of other supporters and they As she she was claiming in Ganges that the building was going to have to be torn down at all this area would have to be dredged out again, and restoring the way it was because we had broken the law. So she had a repeal, and they came to Salt Spring end. And they can't see me three guys arrived my helicopter, Mr. Brooks, a part of this is going to have to go further, this is definitely off the record. When I, when I heard this, and I heard that these allegations have been made that we had used the fire hall trying to sneak this and we just use their name to try and make this go through because both the added to the property. I was curious, just went through and said you have done example political situation. This is totally unreasonable to believe that this shit happen we're going to use accusations of you know how this has happened. You know, we did all the things for the provincial government wasn't as if the public wasn't made aware. It was advertised it was posted the whole thing whole public. So she went and came back about an hour later and then Mr. Brooks came to join the so they understand the need to get this thing settled. Present considerable anxiety. He said I will be giving my recommendation to the minister

Unknown Speaker 36:50
Minister of Transport Canada. Well, about a week later a week later he came back and said he said Mr. Toynbee said you have your permit instead of said this is probably the fastest I've ever seen.

Unknown Speaker 37:12
So you can judge the weight we put on like you said that your fat friend is going to be very happy has worked really well. And he had never said to me before was everybody

Unknown Speaker 37:34
well, it seemed like the pattern continued with it but still trying to get her permits. And she uh, she got it. This is how I rewrote it she did get a permit but then I guess what what happened was when a clash personalities by that time when the sewer she just jumped into that part of the

Unknown Speaker 38:06
sewer for a while and then she went away from the sewer. The only reason I can really say is I think she felt that their place would suffer if the downtown area developed the strength that they had was they had more land and therefore more area for drainage fields ironically, though, they're terrible. They were really big offenders.

Unknown Speaker 38:34
Well now Did I say it correctly when they apply for a shoe I got that from the newspaper article. This was about the early

Unknown Speaker 38:54
I don't remember their application being denied ever. We wanted everybody

Unknown Speaker 39:14
they were my knowledge would never ever denied a sewer hookup. So then why

Unknown Speaker 39:21
why? What? What was what was your motive for hiding? This will be developed.

Unknown Speaker 39:34
Exactly. Exactly.

Unknown Speaker 39:43
She said she would never say that what she did say to her he can. We had a tenant or two that moved out of your space and one of the tenants who came down here said to me How to Get out of the atmosphere. And super wise, because we had eight sessions instead of once a week we got together to think of ways in which we could attack the downtown people instead of was terrible and a country that would rave about how she was going to close down the drugstore. The idea was downtown is going to be destroyed and the upper village is going to take control of the world. Yeah, it was. This was stated repeatedly, repeatedly. We on the other hand, where our position down here is that we were most of the people, most of the business down here couldn't do anything. They couldn't do any changes or, like have a sewer, you couldn't get help from it. You couldn't add a toilet, you couldn't add any employees, they put a restriction of you couldn't add any more employees using the system. Now this was a very ironic and very political. The school over here with hundreds of people flushing straight directly into the harbor, no restrictions were placed no threats of losses, we were threatened with repeated lawsuits because our drainage fields weren't working properly. They didn't have it. And they were pouring 1000s of gallons of the hospital was not working properly. But there was so much fear of the politics of this. Local governments, frankly, would not want to get involved. The islands trust took a very once they got formed took a very hands off thing all over the community. Brown said Ganges will be Seward, the islands trust took a position against Marina are the only logical thing on these islands of Marina, because you can't establish. Now they've withdrawn that section of their they've taken that out of their policy statement. Now it's not very good at the time. They were no help. The school board was actually because they they found this very political factions on the and so they decided to stay out of it. Even though they were running the major offender the really big polluter. They didn't want to get involved with an educational. And so at that time, very few of us and I must say I had to take the lead. We're fighting off the guest side. And we had the great bulk of the population or absolutely uncommitted or didn't want to get involved. And so it was a real struggle to get through the here we were with failed septic fields, replace, replace smell. You got it in here. Let me go today. You never get those smells in the summertime remember the harbor house. And we had people that denying there was any problem and that we were going to pollute the harbor. Now the ironic thing and this is well documented that the federal government in a report a few years ago acknowledged that the harbor has quality, water quality and beach quality of improved access to sewer when you will be better than it's been since probably the 30s when there was hardly anybody living before that. Certainly the better terms. So now we've got other things if you're like folks with Edie falling

Unknown Speaker 44:00
sewage stands for that sort of contamination. It's better to present a balance

Unknown Speaker 44:17
to show show

Unknown Speaker 44:21
Oh yeah. Yeah, I read it overnight didn't have to change I don't have a lot of problems with it. That's like we had the pipe burned.

Unknown Speaker 44:34
Well, now the mystery behind it, and again, this this part here I have changed since I've shown this

Unknown Speaker 44:54
here. This is a direct quote. I think it's From the Victorian newspaper, the clipping that I got from the grip I couldn't get the exact newspaper or the date but this is a quote lifted from the drift the drift with the consensus tends to assign responsibility for the fire to the surprise that's you know that sort of

Unknown Speaker 45:27
we have no idea there I have no idea it's an all sorts of suggestions may have been the only thing

Unknown Speaker 45:41
I was questioned by the police when fire took place. A couple of maladies came in this evening special investigative series happened. been terribly serious because the firemen that worked on that have really been injured.

Unknown Speaker 46:02
Barrel of gasoline on site. That gone out. They were putting that fire. That was very serious. And I

Unknown Speaker 46:15
became this question. They said, Well, it's been suggested that you could be behind this. Trying to discredit the force of opposition. I said, Well, what do you think of that?

Unknown Speaker 46:32
Then they questioned me about DNS. I can't say I have no idea. And years later, several years later, they arrested some young people called the Squamish five had said about different installations, including a BC Hydro substation. They were anti development more involved with the factory producing arms in Toronto, Vancouver. When this happened, it actually sounds a lot lightweight, but might happen to Saltspring. So I found out I had the name of Officer.

Unknown Speaker 47:20
Obvious I said, What about the Squamish? Five were they involved? We immediately thought of all their telephone conversations, and they teach them everything we know and everything they've written. The other part of this, which is important to grasp is the sewer had this happen. And Jesus would have essentially just stagnated and actually just dropped away, because there wouldn't, there would have been no way of financing any changes. So people would not fix the buildings,

Unknown Speaker 48:11
it would have just run down and Yvette, Yvette used to make these statements to the people and the upper villages where everything's gonna be bad. The idea is, if you got enough area you'd have planning by percolation, what it would have happened is it would have been script development, because there would have been a need for services and nowhere to put them because you've got to be sure. That's what we were aiming for. And I think anybody and anybody who knows anyone on the island today, regardless of which side they're with, would have to acknowledge that that's what we were in. So while we had self interest, and we were certainly interested in our own, but the idea of I didn't come here for a script development. I didn't come here to see Surrey Hartsville, which I think is a disaster, what they've done a lot. But the idea was create a town and in fact, the talent should have gone up Rainbow Road. That development shouldn't have happened the way the village market is now. The people that have the village market, I now have a piece of property right at the end of the road here so it wouldn't have been in that location would have been still right at the other end of the court. The belt courts build that on spec up, went broke. And then the people on the village market saw that somebody was gonna buy that and get it at a bargain price. So they thought it that'd be them. They still have the property here. It would have happened here. So the idea of a compact village could happen there

Unknown Speaker 49:56
may be more down the road

Unknown Speaker 50:00
But that's how that development took place up there with the fact that the sewer wasn't here made that

Unknown Speaker 50:06
they hooked up to the sewer.

Unknown Speaker 50:09
We of course wanted them in the sewer, and they were making the big time offenders. This is the irony. We have a perfectly functioning sewer system simply ran right down into that valley and behind the property is behind. And she kept making these statements. But there is a plant here Jackie, will take a better reading, but I want you to read it. Sing I don't have another copy. But I'd like you to read a bit of a random

Unknown Speaker 50:47
events activities. When the NDP got involved in this new democratic she had been a social credit. She jumped to the NDP, I was so great, she jumped right across. And so she went from the greater bridal party to the Socialist Party.

Unknown Speaker 51:09
And she didn't seem to have any trouble doing. Social the NDP did something that has, I don't think it's ever been done here. And that is a provincial party leaping into a very local flooding. That has never been done before. And I hope it's never done again. I have friends in the NDP at that time, who told me they were absolutely, totally disillusioned. I have friends with me because my solution the best solution with the with the party at the party, they were very upset. And they even came to me to tell me give you some idea of how it was a pure, purely cynical, political, they felt they had a chance of beating you Curtis who was the minister of finance from the social credit government, the MLA for this area, they felt that this sewer issue on Saltspring was so unpopular, that if they could make they could cause him to lose the election by by getting a such a huge boulder Salt Spring that it could sway the boat.

Unknown Speaker 52:33
They went to the greatest of lengths, I don't know if you saw this. Come around here. They went to some incredible lengths. That started to make incredible statements about me and writing to the premier to different ministers of the government. And so on, saying that

Unknown Speaker 53:04
I did everything, they illegally breaking the law, right, left and center, getting paid off by Hugh Curtis, and so on and so forth. Finally, a friend of mine said, you know, you really have a deputy minister in the government, so you really have to do something. Because the fact you're not saying anything you're just letting this go by is, is now being sort of nudged or maybe there is something here you say that you're letting these statements. So we took first of all that lawyer writer, saying that we wanted these things, and a letter of apology and so on and so forth. We got no nothing sorted. And I started an action against her. Which eventually only got to the discovery stage for discovery, which I guess is what you call for the facts. Discovery

Unknown Speaker 54:18

Unknown Speaker 54:21
We went through this where I was interrogated by her lawyer, my lawyer.

Unknown Speaker 54:27
At the deposition,

Unknown Speaker 54:29
we got to the point where my lawyer said well, he said I think we can win this. But he said, does she have any money? And I said, No. Sure, then you could get your hands and said okay, I said well, then therefore the what you're going to be doing as far as to clear your name required. Okay? And he said the problem is going to be She makes that statement she she is a sort of person who a judge might well say, this woman says such extravagant things, and she does it all the time that nobody would take her seriously. In other words, she can't be really damaging you because she's quite outrageous and her statements not realistic. And she could claim I don't speak English very well. And she did very well, just a French Canadian from Alberta, and I'm just trying to stay. She said, you might get a sip of that judgment award, you $1 already might say, everybody forget this and go home. In the interim, her lawyer apparently got to her and said you better not talk about Toynbee anymore. And so we didn't proceed to trial and continued on. The thing said when she became regional director.

Unknown Speaker 56:11
She got a resolution passed at the regional restaurant. Building parents advance into February 6, in areas where sewage effluent can be disclosed up at the people responsible for any proposed developments that the developer would be responsible for any cost based interest sewage disposal. Okay, this is a this is a really interesting

Unknown Speaker 56:39
another Regional Board and the first action is she said, I'm terribly worried about the suicide situation again,

Unknown Speaker 56:46
used her position.

Unknown Speaker 56:48
Okay. I want to meet with the Minister of Municipal Affairs to discuss this because these developments are taking place in the village of Ganges, okay, that shouldn't take place. And so she wanted this put into place this resolution to freeze everything for a period of a month. Okay, now, here's the background of this, you may find this really quite incredible. At this time, they had a tenant at their island Savings Credit.

Unknown Speaker 57:23
Which is the same when I was a tenant. Of course, had the credit union and asked to renew their lease for two years.

Unknown Speaker 57:36
I told them no, it had to be five years. Credit Union it already gone around and surveyed different properties, potential properties. And they'd come to me. And this is how things were Jackie, they said now what we're really looking for is a non political location. You don't want to be located right next to the mall. And we don't we're not too comfortable where we are now because it's very political. We'd like to get another location. I don't have another location. I'm sorry. I'd love to do business with you. I can't do it. Developer then builds a little building. We're pro Hargreaves to be over here, who's in there now the video ranches in their little rocks, little concrete building

Unknown Speaker 58:33
from Duncan developed this building, and he got a permit for a holding tank. The reason he got the permit was that it appeared the sewer was going to go ahead

Unknown Speaker 58:49
this morning, this was

Unknown Speaker 58:51
in 1980. And they started the project and the pipe and everything and then it got frozen in the courts. But he got a permit health permits saying use a holding tank and pump it out every day or two. And then it would be discharged to the area per se preceptors discharge. Oh I see. Anyway, and so what he did was he went ahead and built this little building and it was a it was a building that he wanted to build and sell to the end and get out. He went ahead and the credit union leased I think was two or 3000 2000 square feet so I don't savings now that made their decision. They were moving out of the Report Center and not removing renewing their lease which came to an end at the end of January.

Unknown Speaker 59:58
They thought Philadelphia I was sitting on the board of the credit union, which is most amazing. The board of the credit union makes this decision and he's on the board, hearing all of this rental rates. And it's tucked up into vendors beyond believe they allowed it to happen. The day that events went into January 9 1980. If you read this, it says, occupancy permits be held in abeyance until February 6 1980. In areas where sewage effluent can be disposed up by the people responsible for this will be okay. So she, this would have the effect of not allowing occupancy into this, of this space where the credit union now is committed to go, they've already are doing a leasehold improvement counters. Everything's

Unknown Speaker 1:00:58
her candidate. And yet she's trying to abstract. Here's the next step, moving into a new location.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:05
One of the directors of the credit union came to me after this to tell me what had happened, don't move to come and tell me the reason he said you have somebody has to do something about this. They were sitting in their meeting over in Duncan, and he can picture this is a very small credit union at the time, very few people ever doze off the screen or on the board of directors. There's a phone call for Bill Bell, January 9 1980. He goes up, he comes back and he said, Well, that's it, we can't move.

Unknown Speaker 1:01:49
These guys are absolutely shocked when you can't move, because they can't get a development permit there that the board Regional Board decided. She got this resolution passed by the board. Anyway, she, they said This can't be true. So they found the developer and they said, this word that this resolution. He said incredible things and said, I said I'm so fed up with that place. People are crazy about Salt Springs. But anyway, I've got to help. I've got to prep for a holding tank, I've got a building, I'm gonna get an occupancy permit or go to court and get one. So that's the way it's going to be. So they then found the chairman of the Regional Board, Jim Campbell. And Jim and Yvette were not friendly. Because Jim had seen through that a long time before he came from Switzerland. They got him and here they are terribly concerned. And he said, Well, instead I I've read carefully through graduate ballot courts resolution said, since I've been home tonight, that it's clear to me that this would have no impact on your situation. And he said I could read the wording here and help starts building for his documents to be held in advance to have every six areas where sujeto can't be disposed of by the people responsible. Of course, it is going to be disposed of by a holding tank. And a permit has been given by the health inspector therefore he judges that to be a satisfactory solution. She left off on site as well as on site on site by the people responsible for any she didn't put those in. So he said so I said And besides that, he said I can't conceive of the director for ever wanting to stop you from getting an occupancy because she's now because it would be in conflict of interest. She's your innerspace so obviously she's not doing that. The following morning, the that he gets a telegram from you funny that Valcourt saying you have very chatty on the democratic principles. I am reporting into the Minister of municipalities that you have not taken account there's a resolution passed by the Regional Board, etc, etc, etc. Within a very short order, a letter or a phone call from Gregory Belcourt wanting to withdraw or telegraph him a letter withdraw, which he never should have done. You can't withdraw a punch in the nose. It's done. He's received the communication he should have reported to the regional board. The letter withdrawn and the result was sent away she was confirming she wanted that moves Got a tenant to another space and she's using her office for this purpose. I then got into the

Unknown Speaker 1:05:14
permit refusals upheld despite I sent a letter and I detail your activities. And we were jacking getting badgered every single day of the week by different people that she became worse when she got to the regional board, she have that health inspector, that building inspector, everybody going after I write down and say here's what's happened. Here are the facts. I lay this before you are you going to do anything about it? Well, nothing happened. We were having no end of trouble. Whether she was trying to stop on August 11. At right another six months later, I said you've done nothing. What are you going to do? They referred us over to provincial probe of which nothing ever came of this thing. But it's interesting to have a look at it.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:18
I want to also see if you're looking here, there's copies of this one in the the legislature, the NDP, excuse me in the legislature, I was going to build 270 housing units in Ganges.

Unknown Speaker 1:06:40
They could say a lot of things in legislature, which they didn't want you to read. Read the two little bits of information. Kind of sum

Unknown Speaker 1:06:57
it all together. Don't worry.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:01
So how could you

Unknown Speaker 1:07:05
one quarter of the property were kingfishers. Oh, yeah. And at that time I owed one quarter. And that would have given me 36 units. So that would have been nice. It's quite a bit shorter. 270. And, Jackie, I didn't want to because the commercial development is about I don't want to get into residential. I never wanted to do that development.

Unknown Speaker 1:07:48
Except that another good reason. The rest of its been sort of redeveloping or developing. Together my Oh, I had to defend myself because he that started an action against me for defamation. The counterclaim? This is what I really wanted to proceed with her action. And because I had the credit union, people were prepared to testify they that they were anxious to testify what had happened. I mentioned I had Jim Campbell who was ready to testify and people from the Capitol regional board building inspection department ready to testify that she did that to them repeatedly about bullets, bullets, bullets. And this fellow McIlroy, who actually was a supporter of events. He felt that she was a poor, misunderstood, poorly educated lady but feisty and fighting for her constituents. But we first heard that his mind had his mood had changed. And so my lawyer contacted them. Here's the deposition. I will be McElroy. I'm an alderman in the City of Victoria and reside at such and such that in December 1979, I was appointed director of the Capital Region District and I have held that position at the present time as a result of my involvement with the capital Regional District and familiar in a general manner with the business and political situation and Saltspring Island and in particular am aware of Thomas 20. Any that Valcourt operates on has told me that Velcro businesses and salzburgerland that to a large degree are in competition with one another. That in December 1979 He was elected as a director of the cap Region District that an already developed property on Saltspring island in the normal manner, it is necessary to obtain government approval in the form of building permits, pollution control board. permits and others. Many of these permits must be granted by the capital Regional District or his agents or with their approval. prior to and during the time I've been at rector of the Capital Region District, Thomas Toynbee and or his company Molas Trading Company Limited have applied for various permits and licenses have asserted previously described. Many other persons applied for similar licenses and permits during that time that I attended approximately 16 meetings of The cavalry's and district between December 1979 And September 80. And at almost every one of those meetings director Valcourt question that demand inquiries with respect to various permits applied for by Congress time biharmonic Trading Company Limited and to the best of my recollection, she made no such request with respect to the application of any other persons. Director Doug Ford stated on many of those occasions that improper or illegal procedures were used in the consideration of a permit supplied for by Thomas Toynbee or monitoring company limited. In particular, it was alleged that Crown land was being improperly used to solve a sewage disposal problem caused by the hotel. This is when she claimed the landfill was illegal. The hotel was redesigned.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:08
That on several occasions director Valcourt requested that an investigation be made to determine that irregularities had occurred in granting of permits to Thomas time Trading Company Limited and a subcommittee of the Capital Region board was formed by that purpose. In June or July 1980. I was appointed to that subcommittee at director Bell carts request. I had no previous personal involvement with the granting of any permits to Thomas Toynbee or most trading companies. I've never met this guy I've never met. That after a thorough investigation of event Belapur its allegations a subcommittee found no irregularities of any sort relating to the permits issued Thomas join the orange company. I understand the director Valcourt disagrees with the findings of the subcommittee. Furthermore, some staff members have indicated to me that due to directly about gross interest in the permits issued to Thomas Toby a month Trading Company Limited that a disproportionate amount of their time is spent checking and rechecking permits and applications concerning Thomas to IBM Australian company limited that on the basis of my observations of event reports, activities and statements of meetings to capital Regional District, I believe that our actions are set out above could be seen to be motivated by a desire to hinder the business operations of our company that petition Thomas to me. Although Mrs. Valcourt claims that her actions are in no way motivated by a conflict of interest, it was seen that her business would profit if Mr. 20 business were hindered. To me, you can imagine going through that for years and having people sort of look at you. I guess he must be guilty. Because all these statements are coming. It's very disconcerting. Here's a really interesting one is Bob Skelly who later became leader of the NDP. A lot of accusations in the house. Under the protection of the house you can say anything inside the legislature and not be sued for it. And Victoria, you can defame anyone who can do all these things. Once you get outside. It's different. And he he really liable slandered who Curtis in the house. And you've heard and said that you say that they were statements outside. He then got whipped up because they had a huge public meeting here. August 26 1981 and anti sewer for people in the legislature. No, this was Saltspring okay. But they had they had whipped everybody up in the legislature because they said they wanted this to be a huge embarrassment. They wanted to discredit you, Curtis it was a political, cynical political. Skelly then came to Saltspring for this great anti sewer meeting. And this is apology and retraction. This comes from Skelly on Wednesday, the 26th of August 1981 of the public meeting in Ganges and Saltspring. With approximately 700 people in attendance. I don't think there were that many. I use the following words concerning the Eucharist Minister finance and MLA for Saanich in the out, I could only come to the conclusion, I had no other option before me except to reach the conclusion that the minister was making a payoff to his friends and supporting friends in his area. I couldn't arrive at any other conclusion now the minister the minister challenged me to make that statement outside the house and to make it in the hall. And I suspect that he was going to sue me for libel for making that statement as I have just done tonight. He did this and it was all televised. So there was no question about what was said, picture was there speaking to the crowd, many, many people and making this allegation. And now he said by those words, I meant it was understood at the end that I was repeating the allegations, which I made in the debates of the Legislative Assembly on Tuesday, June 30, concerning the honorable Hugh Curtis, as a result of my refusal to withdraw these allegations and my appearance that they were the truth, I was ordered from the host for the remainder of the day setting that he was thrown out of the house. I now wish to take this opportunity to withdrawing the allegations which I made against Mr. Curtis and in their entirety and to state that I am not aware of any facts whatsoever, which would give rise to any suspicion that Mr. period has paid off his friends in connection with the Ganges sewers being or indeed in connection with any other matter whatsoever. Particularly grant them allegation reported widely at the time they remain in the house and were also reported in issues of the golf grip with their September 2 At one September 23. At i Now apologize to Mr. Curry and courtesy and Curtis and his family for the embarrassment caused to them by my true statements. These guys this, the same people, Skelly and the Charles Barber. Also, as it was a team thing, there was two of them questioning Curtis, the government and threatened embarrassment. They came here to me, and I've recorded all this stuff. Because I had to protect myself be ready for going to trial with everything. And a good member of the NDP friend of ours. Isabel Goodman, she wanted to be here when these two guys arrived. She was old enough to be their mother said to them, you boys know how long I've been in the party. And she said you know you've even been to my house and she said, I'm telling you you're wrong. And you did you not only apology you said I hate to say it but you're wonderful Curtis too because you're totally wrong. And you've done the wrong thing. This you're supporting this woman who's ruining this and the pier right right here in this little tiny room I have all committed together at Manson in here. Matson give them a real going over. As a matter of fact, Manson said remember debate on trying to stay there was a longtime supporter of the CCF and NDP was greatly disturbed at the party with St. John's unsupportable principle personal tax in the legislature. Barber and barber said he was going to apologize to me that their backs have been wrong. So where did your facts come from most of our research department he never ever gave me the apology he promised to hear in front of all the witnesses. Skelly never said anything went on to become leader of the NDP after doing but he's got a richly deserved fate he was annihilated and something you really, really deserve to have happened. So Well, yeah. But what happened is that the movement became a coalition of all the different interests just again, again, again the most outrageous statements can Goebbels BIG LIE approach that use that all the time, and then she just keeps swinging by that. Eventually some of the people say yeah, oh, well, yeah, of course trying cricket to USA but they might say cheese, cricket, cricket. Oh, yeah. He's getting away with murder. Well, the inspector back overlay the inspectors are saying exactly the same thing. We were the ones who are getting all the help officer after three or four times. Knocked down the building inspector.

Unknown Speaker 1:19:57
With a reasonable So for those that want to go public, I got a question you guys, what you're doing and where are you taking your instructions? Why are you here? The answer

Unknown Speaker 1:20:18
there is something new that I have that I have written here that I've been working on. I was trying to think of what happened after, you know, 86 when the sewer was complete

Unknown Speaker 1:20:42
wording building was at a standstill, just to be totally accurate. We did one building at that time, that was Island savings, credit union, the same credit union, they moved the building across the street and into the one over here. That was that was built.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:09
And we built that on where the Grange feel because that was a big lot. half acre lot, there was the only place in Ganges where where the drainage field was for the sewer where the sewer went through a year later, we rip up the whole branch and built the other section of that building. And so that was the only thing that could occur at that time, because we weren't allowing anything unless it stopped flowing all the time. What happened? I think it's usually

Unknown Speaker 1:21:47
the we're heading change.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:49
Yes, holding tank was simply holding the sewage was taken away. Septic Tank was filled with range fields.

Unknown Speaker 1:21:58
So you had both in the village.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:04
We had one holding

Unknown Speaker 1:22:10
think the point was that things were pretty much frozen.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:13
Oh yeah, you could say that they were almost frozen.

Unknown Speaker 1:22:22
For a period actually Jackie 15 years old. There was very severe contamination and he developed it was based on the ability to dispose of sewage. So that while the population was growing steadily, the town was. So you can't have situation where you remember up until 1989. Very long ago, there was 6000 feet of grocery store here. And about 4500 over the trading 10,000 feet, which was far far less than a community of the size, which was about 7000 people would require so in other words, we in the village market moved up the road, they moved to 21,000. So we then had 21,000 feet up the road and the trading we put down the trading later on this way that we went into the situation where a lot of money was going off to purchase basic groceries which means more use of a very, very expensive province of British Columbia because these are highly subsidized ferries. And consequently, the what really happened is that we've fallen behind behind what was the needs of the island. And there was a catch up period.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:25
So would you say to catch up? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:34
So the first question was the first one

Unknown Speaker 1:24:48
to remember that.

Unknown Speaker 1:24:50
Grace, I'm sorry. And I really

Unknown Speaker 1:24:57
Kingfisher started auditioning Kuiper Belt 87 spring and 89 develop them and Kingfisher was not too long after that it started and the other little went up the way there was it was common

Unknown Speaker 1:25:19
they're all hooked up everything

Unknown Speaker 1:25:21
they're all in the server

Unknown Speaker 1:25:23
that allows those things to be built where

Unknown Speaker 1:25:27
nothing could have been done that was absolutely nothing

Unknown Speaker 1:25:39
none of them could have addressed the Community Plan

Unknown Speaker 1:25:52
previous to this one it's under discussion now. It kind of played at the Ganges being the center of the island where we would provide educational facilities shopping facilities, cultural facilities and aid that would be added there would be a choice of housing types and it contemplated the sewer although as they said they wanted to do it with with marine disposal

Unknown Speaker 1:26:31
so in other words, what has happened arguably what has happened is really totally in keeping with what the plan visualized that there would be more of a concentration around the village and the fact that the goal days way way back there was a fair little cluster around Ganges and more people living in here and then we got away with the Super days most of the residential stuff couldn't get permits and so on. So then you got to scatter around the population was rising again us was going nowhere for years 15 years so let's have we had a relative which now I don't I don't think there's gonna be very much i Except maybe some condos. But the uptake rate on condos is not rapid. It took a long time to sell.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:42
I think for kingfisher.

Unknown Speaker 1:27:46
There's not going to be rushing

Unknown Speaker 1:27:50
but don't don't feel that outside. There's just a slow steady population points to America and all around the channel six things or something even by outside of the village and won't come back. Back.

Unknown Speaker 1:28:36
It will, it will. It will happen. What what happens, growth here has come in spurts over the years it's tended to be that way we had periods where we've had very, very slow growth down to the order of maybe 1% or 7%. But if you average that out probably 85%. And that's on an average basis. Right now I suspect that substantially below the real estate market is slow. The number of new houses going up is very limited. And how long that's going to demographics who's gonna move where are those people? What are they going to do they need incomes or do they not do they have resources again do situation Race Point is an interesting

Unknown Speaker 1:29:58
7000 square feet overview 1/3 of all our space

Unknown Speaker 1:30:05
trading square

Unknown Speaker 1:30:07
square the commercial space

Unknown Speaker 1:30:15
which is five or 6000 square feet 20,000 devoted to various things Saltspring insurance how much space in a single building from

Unknown Speaker 1:30:32
the shops and various survive now seem to be surviving and then you get some office occupancy, some health, dental care and that sort of thing as we get rid of services or services in terms of our own development since the sewer what's new this building used to be able to square footage of leasable square footage just under 6000. And now as leasable square footage just under 11 So it's about 5000 feet we got 16 over

Unknown Speaker 1:31:23
4375 recovery categories

Unknown Speaker 1:31:38
company from a leasable.

Unknown Speaker 1:31:57
So there's 2000 Is what

Unknown Speaker 1:32:03
I'm talking about original

Unknown Speaker 1:32:05
weather was when we started working on when we replaced we put the porch all the way around it remember in the past there was no porch down the side. So there's 700 people. So while we added here in there the leasable area is only 2000 feet so we're talking about 26,000 4000 Grocery

Unknown Speaker 1:32:49
so there was an initial surge I shouldn't say that's not a net increase that we tore down the old crest 25,000 The only addition grace in other words Grace points addition bigger. Their leasable area is bigger than what we've added

Unknown Speaker 1:33:14
the community well the skeleton for the community plan

Unknown Speaker 1:33:25
because we are going to have to have Yes, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker 1:33:31
There has to be there has to be fairly broad acceptance of things. People proposed them in

Unknown Speaker 1:33:47
the course of this irrational debate and say okay, if you don't like this What are your suggestions? My own view of it is that they've made it a bureaucratic nightmare. that quite frankly, the cost of enforcement is so great. And the frustration people tend to be fighting all the time to really get people ready to buy

Unknown Speaker 1:34:32
look up a bit at the present time and compare at the waterfront access in the parks and see what walkways and all these things which is simply weren't there. Those have all been done privately. Virtually all

Unknown Speaker 1:34:53
in that case, we did yeah, So by us doing sending $100,000 We also put the power lines and I remember when they used to run up to

Unknown Speaker 1:35:14
the old pictures of big transformers there wasn't Jackie's the look up from the dock down here now