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Indian Place Names on Salt Spring Island

Chris Arnett

Chris Arnett talking to the Salt Spring Historical Society on the meaning of Indian place names on Salt Spring Island.


Accession Number Interviewer SSI Historical Society Address
Date October 14, 1997 Location Central Hall
Media tape Audio CD mp3
ID 134 Duration




Unknown Speaker 0:00
Mohammed speaking Island alpha male, um, I think a lot of it's sort of, you'd have to ask an island help a male speaker. But I've been interested in the language for a number of years, I grew up in Vancouver, and early on, I became very interested in the Indian place names or learning about them, because it gave you a whole other way to relate to the land. I've always been interested in history, but I wanted to learn more about so called prehistory. And so I became very interested in learning all the place names and just gives you a different way of relating to the land. So today, I'm going to speak on Indian place names of Saltspring Island, and I've drawn upon a number of sources. None of this is my original research, I've just sort of compiled material from a number of sources. Probably the most important is the work done in 1985 by a man named David rosin. And it was his master's thesis at UBC and was entitled to Island health Meilland place name, so Vancouver Island and the Gulf Islands. And David went around and interviewed elders on Cooper island in college and chumminess to compile their recollections of place names and it's really an invaluable source of information for Island health many place names, unfortunately, it's only in thesis form in the UBC Library, but I've got a photocopied version of it, people are interested. Another source good source for place names on Saltspring is a work by Frank Elliot senior late Frank Elliot of Saanich. And he did a book entitled saltwater people that was published, even 1980 in the ad 1980s. And then there was a subsequent version published after he passed on, and it gives a lot of the Saanich place names which mostly relate to the south end of Salt Spring. Another source is Ruby Peters, a woman from Duncan who, a native woman who teaches Ireland how Camila in a school and she has produced a manuscript entitled, place names of the poets and people. And she's developed a very good writing system with when you get into any place names. It's, it's very discouraging, because often they use sort of linguists or the these very strange ways of writing these names with sevens and upside down letters. And you know, it's impossible for the average person to decipher what the word means. But Ruby Peters has done a very sort of English friendly transliteration of these Indian names other sources of user Wayne Suttles. Two, for a few names and France Bo, as famous as German anthropologist provided some other names. Today, of course, they're not, there are no familiar place names on the island. And there's two reasons for this First and foremost, and the Royal Navy surveyors map these waters in between about 1857 and 1863. They gave English names to all the points of land in the mountains and harbors and of course, most of us are familiar with these foolproof harbor and Ganges and these are all named after Royal Navy officers and their ships and and these names are the ones that come down to us. It's kind of maybe ironic in a way that in a few short years, 1000s of years of history was sort of eradicated But another reason the place names are not familiar, it's because they're very difficult to pronounce. And for for English speaking people, although initially a few remained in use. In the early days, for example, most people are familiar with Tron and Tron Island, which governor Governor Douglass named for Salt Spring, but wouldn't it in fact only referred to a certain portion of the South Island names. In the names designated summer or winter encampments of various families and Saltspring was used by a number of families. I figured about 20 or so from different villages from the Saanich Peninsula, the couch and area, couch and valley chumminess Valley and keep her Island involved as Island. And these resources and territories are owned by these people. Land permission to use them had to be sought by others. The names described either natural resources, or how the land was shaped, or what had happened to the land. For example, places would be named Douglas fir. I mean, I'm just giving the English or see or it's in place, and these refer to the natural resources. Unusual rock formations also suggested names and in the missile events, which happened in the mythological times and subsequent horror, historic events also provided names in contrast to European usage, places were never named after a person, the person's name was and still is special to that individual. And after his or her death, her name could be given to someone else, but only with the family's permission. The names we look at, that we'll look at today, and there are 17 place names are no doubt but a small percentage of what has been lost. I met an elder once who told me that if there's a place, Indians got a name for it. And this is very true. It helped establish you know, familiarity with the landscape. These names and, for example, Captain Grant. Vancouver island's first independent settlers Sue Carver, used taken on a tour of Sioux Carver by a native man and he got kind of exasperated because he every point of land every creek mouth every bar or sandbar, every clump of trees, rock formation had a name, and he just couldn't keep track of them all. So we'll start we'll look at some of these names beginning with the north

Unknown Speaker 6:57
part of the island, which is this area, which was in the traditional territory of the elegance, the Cooper Island first one we'll look at this

Unknown Speaker 7:16

Unknown Speaker 7:24

Unknown Speaker 7:26
is white, brown or white beach. And this refers to the around sunny point, people will notice area one of the distinguishing features of these white, incredible white shell beaches like here and where else couples even down here and these were the sites of course 1000s of years of resource extraction by people from from Cooper Island, harvesting plants, they built up mittens that no one knows how to do because they never been excavated, but they literally four mounds of shell and from the water they are white. So that's an NF C How can you get this like this is a way a linguist right this is P would be sort of elliptical, an aspirated P and then the accent is

Unknown Speaker 8:22
generally needs white net.

Unknown Speaker 8:28
So that's one area of course, these places wouldn't be used by everybody needs to be controlled by certain families

Unknown Speaker 8:35
from abroad.

Unknown Speaker 8:39
So continuing down the coast, even though there was a very large Shellman in here, the place they both lost, but most importantly, the past year place having salt which is presently a fern with

Unknown Speaker 9:04
two versions here what loan or what flow and that means place having salt for salty. This is the name for Fernwood area of course refers to the Salt Springs which give our islands name its present. These areas were controlled by families from inelegant particular Laxton brothers Well, we actually got some descendants of these individuals here today the sense of family. Yes. I don't know. I haven't been able to. They must have they definitely knew about it using the bolts My mother's cousin and her grandfather down the

Unknown Speaker 10:19
road you self preservation

Unknown Speaker 10:33
girl or grandpa

Unknown Speaker 10:55
day used to be just

Unknown Speaker 11:05
the lower part for a bit

Unknown Speaker 11:12
and they used to be coastal

Unknown Speaker 11:20
areas like that

Unknown Speaker 11:37
really like this continuous

Unknown Speaker 11:49
battle this something that bothered me for some years I recall reading early literature me that in his description

Unknown Speaker 12:19
was quite open country like English estates any piece of property trees creating different lands

Unknown Speaker 12:44
that is why this area was the first site of European settlement

Unknown Speaker 12:52

Unknown Speaker 13:15
but horses are good for us

Unknown Speaker 13:20
yeah but even in between yeah

Unknown Speaker 13:29
I wonder if it's because I know it's other areas of the islands and native people used to burn off areas that may have left these naturally open areas but Gary folklorists and everybody's worried about they want to preserve

Unknown Speaker 14:13
not once the browser starts

Unknown Speaker 14:30
to jump

Unknown Speaker 14:43
comes down to all areas

Unknown Speaker 14:54

Unknown Speaker 15:14
Oh that's interesting yeah that's fascinating place we just moved down here really interested in area of loving sports those are the only two names that we have for this part of the Saltspring they may have been many more in the old days the next place name we come to what I've been able to find is long harbor and lot of harbor have the Indian name for halibut which was

Unknown Speaker 15:45
to sell

Unknown Speaker 15:52
halibut and apparently in the old days people came from an elegant and launcher McKubre Island to fish halibut is harder again here's a I've never gotten help with air ever hear the Elvis

Unknown Speaker 16:23
concert was used for daring to because

Unknown Speaker 16:28
yeah but here's a an example

Unknown Speaker 16:31
of a place name named after the resource well the same with the salt two

Unknown Speaker 16:39
so the next

Unknown Speaker 16:40
place is Ganges harbor the Indian name for it

Unknown Speaker 16:51
they're all in the top mana Jimena dialect

Unknown Speaker 17:01
in the seven seven is a glottal stop

Unknown Speaker 17:13
she or she she often and the name that I consistently first or that I found translated as is follow place and then I created another account so go make it cautious and sometimes you get these discrepancies and wonder what to make of it. Make it cautious. It could refer to these rocks that are on here. But hollow place seems to be you know kind of descriptive of the place of becoming here by boat. You get this feeling of being served as a closed area. And of course this place was very well known it was used. The resources here were owned by families from lonicera and Cooper islands and elegant on Cooper Island and from tax cut, relaxed and well designed. These families come here various times of the year and in summer lingcod halibut salmon fishing. Apparently they hunted the females in here corpus seals and sea lions. And Mr. Sampson indicated law harbor was very well known as the herring collecting place where they would rake the herring and collect the spine as well. And of course the earring would attract all these other critters. There are of course large shell businesses all around the base. clans are also harvested there's probably been a bold placing on Salt Springs probably had the most. The most continuous occupation is a cemetery for example. Some of you are probably familiar with the hills property and put a Churchill road to the Marpole date about 2000 years ago and large cemeteries this size, wealth of offerings and stuff indicates the existence of some large permanent settlement at that time. We were also replaced here also on by Saanich people. One of them might have its name here somewhere. Rommel, who own a house, the name of an individual and a house and the head of Ganges Harbor. And that after the first step is the first white settlers came here they the native people that reestablished the ability they weren't there for quite thrive because of the summertime and everybody was done in the Fraser River fishery and I think this gave rise to this myth about Saltspring never having any Indian people living with nonsense really. And then when they came back and found the Europeans and Scots in their last ad they built their village which was visited by official hills in 1860.

Unknown Speaker 20:17
Moving from chic whites we go to all around here there's probably

Unknown Speaker 20:22
place names or places like Venice Beach which has quite a large bid we go to Beaver point the Indian name for beaver points

Unknown Speaker 20:41
Cessna estimate

Unknown Speaker 20:45
which means to be struck head on or to be struck right on and this must refer to canoe travel around this point or something because if you're coming along here by water I don't know it's quite a marked point in turn it lots of currents it must refer to some sort of navigational property but it was also very well known camping spot sort of a natural place to

Unknown Speaker 21:12
pull up your canoes on your way to the mainland drag the past and there's also a number of burial Cairns located there

Unknown Speaker 21:27
moving from such an old we go to Fulford harbour harbor

Unknown Speaker 21:37
book at Harbor was used primarily by Senate people, although some couches well. Many native to this place

Unknown Speaker 21:56
on top of Ala Wai Nana in the Spanish

Unknown Speaker 22:06
bananas in the sandwiches phonetic, sort of similar, but I talked to a fellow who speaks out how he thinks that Santa is one of those difficult languages to learn. In fact, today, there's only probably less than 20 fluent speakers of it. Although there are lots of good dictionaries and stuff available

Unknown Speaker 22:28
for Netflix.

Unknown Speaker 22:30
Now this has a number of meet different meanings. So well. First of all, it talks about the resources, places well used as a herring fishery, Link cod, salmon, and halibut in the summer and it was also very well known as a duck hunting area. And there were permanent settlements that the site of drumming part of Bob Aikman tells me that he was younger days he remembers costing the foundation before houses to say that the park children's playground, which were leveled to when they built the playground and of course the president beaver point in the reserve it's another site long habitation in fact up until the last occupant with disappeared under strange circumstances in the 1920s kinetics with the longest continue to occupy a place on Saltspring Island centuries if not millennia of occupation. And you can certainly determine this by the artifacts I used to live up here we found 3000 year old data points or any patch

Unknown Speaker 23:42
in the middle of the woods

Unknown Speaker 23:45
which indicated with a broken points and some animal typology. The point is 3000 years ago, some people were using this area for millennia. Not much real good, comprehensive place here Can you place the next debate anyway, get into the name Kwinana it's a number of different meanings one is that I found was lowering lowering the Rear Lowering the rear end to the water and other one was lowering the rear end that there wasn't one I like the best is a movie right over this what does this mean? It must relate to some some events in the past and historic events. It's interesting in this in this one edition that about Frank Elliot, you compile these place names and this was a movie about over that's what he called a minimum subsequent edition of his book published after he died. The meeting was changed to

Unknown Speaker 24:55
looking towards sanity.

Unknown Speaker 24:58
I think it's time Yeah, because all the other reasons I found a rival

Unknown Speaker 25:07
who knows what it means

Unknown Speaker 25:16
to do it

Unknown Speaker 25:24
because yeah that brings up an interesting point because about 1840 is a man made less than its man who use half made Island have done the deed because of these constant raids by Northern people gathered the people of Fulford harbour, Ganges harbour main island and Stuart and the movements have said to sell it were established when they moved them together for the better protected so maybe that's still lowering your head I don't know. Follow each other guy

Unknown Speaker 26:10
standing up and you sit down and turn your way

Unknown Speaker 26:15
see where you're going Yeah, absolutely for

Unknown Speaker 26:31
sure. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker 26:36
it must have been a significant event whatever happened in the place that the names are moving from one attic over to the

Unknown Speaker 26:56
yeah, I'll talk about Mount maxel This is a very interesting story because it's the name Indian name for Mount Maxwell.

Unknown Speaker 27:14
Well, my Epson episode and this this name means bent

Unknown Speaker 27:19
over place. And

Unknown Speaker 27:23
this is a very interesting

Unknown Speaker 27:25
story because it goes way back to the mythological age 1000s of years ago, and there was a very nasty crater that lived on the other side of the Sands and narrows. Octopus points.

Unknown Speaker 27:41
gaping mouth

Unknown Speaker 27:42
and this was people describe it as the man in an octopus with some nasty underwater creatures living in a cave at this point. And whose son went by

Unknown Speaker 27:52
his lair this time would shoot out

Unknown Speaker 27:55
and canoe in half and drown the people eat them and stuff caused a lot of consternation maybe this McHattie kind of moved around this guy has a story to this point and people today still believe that there's something there whenever they go by a wide berth and I sent a friend of mine over there to try to take some pictures because apparently can still see the most of this creature he did that was the creepiest place there still has his bed but anyway this monster doesn't live anymore because he was killed by one of the first man smoke smoke whites who lifted point Roberts he was one of the first men all the Highland Island health people descend from these ancestors who were dropped from the sky and various places like Provo sicker other places over on the mainland all of the Fraser River people are descended from the that has blamed this guy spotless he was a giant and he killed his monster and he did it with a slingshot sling and took him for Drive. But he kept he wasn't able to get it cuz he's a recording Roberts right which is way over there. He couldn't hit this watch because mountain Max tall mountain. So we called up to it bend over which it did. The mountain today has this kind of characteristic shape, you know becoming an unfiltered article. And he said perfect and he got it on his fourth shot, smashed its face filter. And you can actually see another one of the rocks Atlantic County milestone in April Bay is one of his sling stones. So anyway, that was the end of and the incident gave the mountain its presentation a course. I call it and another place name, but we don't Do we know anything about visibility points

Unknown Speaker 30:08
is called Talat

Unknown Speaker 30:16
publishing talent looks taller and there's

Unknown Speaker 30:20
no no

Unknown Speaker 30:25
knowledge of the meaning of this word. But it's interesting Isabel point is an archaeological interest because it's the remains of a large longhouse there and people have found gunflint things some interesting occupation there continued in historic times with the gunfights the next place I look at is probably the most interesting famous

Unknown Speaker 31:00

Unknown Speaker 31:01
to one which is mouthwash by the name of one one of the few places that retains part of its Indian original name of course that was when Governor Douglas made his famous canoe trip Saltspring Island probably got its you know, its name display pointed to very prominent bluffs there the mountain and the Sichuan so he assumed that was the name of Hawaii when in fact it only referred to this

Unknown Speaker 31:38
one specific spot to one means land mountain goes

Unknown Speaker 31:44
right down to the water and of course you're going into by boat the way it appears Multimap in this place is very famous for an incident which happened far in the distant past

Unknown Speaker 32:00
to manage the Holocaust in fact, there's a place right at the very top of the site of present day Buddhist monastery called olika so how can a man with a flashing eyes and it's quite an interesting story he was the son of a slave and he was sort of considered a sort of a no goodnik

Unknown Speaker 32:21
and was sort of tripped out of the tribe try to you know, you

Unknown Speaker 32:26
can sort of really dirty and cover the lights and stuff you really unpleasant individual but his grandmother saw some hope for him. So she sent him off to train for us which is what people did and we did the old days people find the sort of occupation the calling life they will be trained in hearing aids by the grandparents and then sent off to a certain place to to put hold vigils and exercise until they have a experience with a guardian spirit or spirit of some sort to give them their call calling light that's talented at it and actually the scope on supernatural power. So halogen was left here he may have gone up to the top of Mount Swann and passed out and then during for he fell asleep as it did and then the Thunderbird swipe quotes

Unknown Speaker 33:22
so power on

Unknown Speaker 33:24
swipe was very powerful a supernatural being and the power that sweat was gave him was the ability to open his eyes and zap anything just opens it literally pulls shoot out and just kill everything. So of course he went back to the village right away and all the people mistreated and came riding out and said Oh, you come back and everything just opened his eyes zapped he went to see his grandmother and she realized that something was up instead. Let me see your pretty eyes I think you're pretty eyes soak them a bit and

Unknown Speaker 34:00
they actually put them in a house and apparently the

Unknown Speaker 34:03
light no you open the side of the house and the light was shooting up through the roof and everything and so he became quite an awesome character. And he eventually according to the story, he built a house on the top of Mount one large Lodge and then he would order the chiefs will all the surrounding goes to the conceit and they bring up tribute these chiefs rotated to the southern slave telling them what to do and then you'd even pointed to a beach version started with pointing to beach and what that beach up here so we went down into the box by box that runs white Shell Beach up there and according to wonders in the story you can still find a spot up here with the shell is still be seen. Eventually the cheese and then he decided he wanted the daughters and allies and all the teeth with that. Okay, we've got to put a stop to this. Here we are the chiefs, long lines and chiefs going up the mountain those tributes so they decided to kill him. And they managed to do this in a meeting and while there's It was turned into a fashion club. And that was the end of the holiday. But his spirit still exists because I've read some accounts of the warriors in the 19th century with train one of the most powerful spirits yet sounds very similar to his name. And the sight of mouth swab for centuries was used people go out there and seek this power. And it's interesting, like a cousin of mine, in the Buddhist told me the story about

Unknown Speaker 35:38
the monastery

Unknown Speaker 35:40
appears bounded by as much as monk The Room Post very exalted spiritual leader since dead but he was currently flying over the island and the plane just pointed down into a monastery went down and checked it out. Land was available and now we have a Buddhist monastery in sight. So it's something about spiritual power or whatever it is, they're sort of transcended centuries and cultures to another place. And just down from here there's another place name referring directly to the Thunderbird I have yet to locate this but it's somewhere up there where

Unknown Speaker 36:26
sweat solid sweat quote is the Thunderbird salies Cave Cave of the Thunderbird

Unknown Speaker 36:33
and according to information provided by elders certain times I'm here to be here to emanating from this cave somewhere up above old bluff in this area so that's something to investigate further and they've made the sound of the Thunderbirds the way it's created was stenographers flapping his wings

Unknown Speaker 37:04
this area all around here below Motwane is used by found the strength mainly couch harbor and sets for a multitude of resources hearing and all manner of etudes this little rock here Musgrave rock is another place name property

Unknown Speaker 37:38
which means likely excrement head you probably think of other things or manure like but no obviously first the bird droppings on the rock interesting place name and the Saanich version disuse does show a little difference between sandwich and

Unknown Speaker 38:03
cow axon

Unknown Speaker 38:09
coretec Little different sandwich version moving up the coast come to bowl bluff the poet's name for bold bluff

Unknown Speaker 38:37
collect was this means lots lying down or place for many are lying down and this is right here will flop and if you approach this area by canoe the rock formation looks like a bunch of people lying down the facts exposed rose here's an example of you know a name given to a place because of its unusual geological formations. In warfare and down here, I guess Kellogg set the biggest states there's another place name

Unknown Speaker 39:27
a weapon sweet little drummer plays. This refers to an unusual drumming sound sometimes heard in this bay may have something to do with the action of the wave rock formations in that area. Moving into Burgoyne Virgo a big

Unknown Speaker 39:57
called Qualcomm In

Unknown Speaker 40:01
which we merge GaNS or duck. Another example of a place name referring to a valued resource and brigands are ducks were in the past, netted and hunted here by the 1000s. As well there was salmon stream here and clams and number of acres of Camus fields are Camus patches that were periodically burned or burned every year actually. People who own this area come from plantlets and Bob Aikman, who most of you know is descended from a family that owned the rights resources to this area. And he is a grandmother to help we have her cousin and her cousin sister on married early settlers in this area. Early on, I looked at a map done an 1860s showing the survey surveyed areas in the Cowichan Valley and in the survey portions of this vertical and you can Valley and

Unknown Speaker 41:15
this name continued on the name for the

Unknown Speaker 41:17
mount Maxim was walked into the anglicisation of this one sort of nerdy example of

Unknown Speaker 41:25
enabling continue for a

Unknown Speaker 41:26
little bit and then of course, he dropped

Unknown Speaker 41:30
an excellent king named out on your

Unknown Speaker 41:35
way from Portland said some narrows.

Unknown Speaker 41:49

Unknown Speaker 42:04
Tamil for to the these waters.

Unknown Speaker 42:10
Just to hear alto

Unknown Speaker 42:12
talk Tamil means is

Unknown Speaker 42:15
cooler than look for tall which means lukewarm in total

Unknown Speaker 42:22
with the Indian neighborhood Bay in Subic Bay. This area because the water is like today warm swimming here a lot in the summer is beautiful. There's example of a place danger of a physical

Unknown Speaker 42:40
environment. Finally here

Unknown Speaker 42:44
is the loan and is the name without any known meaning today, and it was a name given for booth canal area pass which was also another area heavily used. The people that's about is for place names. Saltspring Island is what 17 or 18. Said in passing probably a lot more.

Unknown Speaker 43:19
But it's

Unknown Speaker 43:22
kind of fun. It's sort of a challenge to learn these names and then the use of you know when you're down in Beaufort harbor think of when Natick kind of gives you a whole different perspective on things.

Unknown Speaker 43:35
Anyway, thanks.

Unknown Speaker 43:44
A question




Unknown Speaker 0:00
Different things. They either refer to the shape of the land, or the resource there or some story about the land. All these names have stories in tension with. Did all the bands have this common language like the Connecticut's and the other ones? No, they did some different bands have different names and for some use cases, some do. Yeah, I've come across that you'll find a particular family led to certain names or places as opposed to another family have a different name. But usually it's pretty consistent. Like for example, you look at some linguistic maps this area and Salt Springs cuts through the middle with a whole comedian speakers up here. That's how comedian is a is a language related to the language of the Fraser River spoke between Vancouver Island all the way up the Fraser to Yale, they speak three different versions of the Hulkamania language. And this is the island poco venum, which is a variant. The words are the names are kind of mutually intelligible, as long as you account for sound shifts, like you know, like for here, like white people here called Quinn, Edom, over on the mainland to call WELEDA. So you have the sound shifts between L and then and once you account for that you can communicate. But yeah, generally these were sort of Saanich names down here, but all the sandwich names have their cognizance and in the whole comedian ones. But people have said the Sandy Hook of Unum are mutually unintelligible So, only in California with more linguistic diversity. British Columbia the second richest language diversity in North America. I think there's 23 Different Salish dialects. So pretty confusing, and a lot of Americana more than welcome em. The language represented here is probably one of the strongest languages, I think there's 100 fluent speakers, maybe 300. Partially fluent.

Unknown Speaker 2:00
That's today.

Unknown Speaker 2:01
Yeah. Yeah. So it's, you know, it's a language, it's just on the verge of disappearing. It's mostly spoken longhouses, you know, in sort of ceremonial ritual context, and in a few families, but it's, but fortunately, a lot of work like recording names and elders, so it'll never disappear. But I don't know if it'll have the strength it used to have. So you're gonna, this is just some, somebody's a little out of order. But these are just some of the points found up in the hills around Salisbury. And these are just found by people walking along, they find some trace points, and donate it to the Royal BC Museum where they filed away under the, under the grid in the appropriate area. But the thing about these, these are really old points, these points today from 1000 years old, that they're found out of context up in the hills, so we don't really have much information about them. But they indicate, you know, that people have been in for quite a while. And the native people use, you know, the whole shoreline from the intertidal right up to the tops of the mountains. This is a pretty cool photograph from from Crawford, Sam in the in the couch in delta. And you probably recognize this mount Suhaila. And this is a photograph taken in 1868, which is a gives you a really good idea of the typical native village today. And you can see all these individual large cedar houses. And prior to contact, it was no, these houses are all autonomous units, like each one would be a separate 10 political unit, the basis of the indigenous politics of the political structure is the individual family. So each one of these, if you saw a village like this and say 12345678 houses, each one of those houses be its own autonomous unit with its own leaders. So it's sort of a participatory democracy. There were specialists, you know, each house, each family had its own kind of specialty. There'll be a host associated with warriors to be assessed the house associated with a deer hunters would be a haunted house associated with sea mammal hunters, and the house associated with storytellers, houses associated with basketmakers. You know, the every family had its own expertise. And if you grew up in that family, you were sort of nurtured in the expertise of that family. And all these families, you know, own their winter house, this is where they would spend, you know, most of the winter, but in the in the spring and summer times, every house here would have its own food gathering areas spread out all across the land, like all through the Gulf Islands, you know, over to the mainland over to the San Juan Islands, you know, a huge network. I mean, that was the their community was actually an extended community and went out over the landscape. This has given rise to all the standard pathologies needed just sort of wandering around, gathering food wherever they could, you know, nothing could be further from the truth. This was a they had a very sophisticated system was developed over over millennia of you Who's and it was? Yeah, based on customer use inheritance. And everybody, you know, was familiar with their own food gathering areas, and the food gathering areas of other people, they were all alone. This is why this land claim process now is so complicated. And people talk about these overlapping claims, because they did not have little circumscribed states, they had individual families who were connected to various areas all over the Lower Mainland. Yeah, and they had this participatory democracy, and I mentioned how each house would have its own specialties. So, so leadership was sort of task specific, like if this village was attacked, you know, leadership would, would fall to the house of warriors, they would just take over where was the head of that house would be in charge, say in the summer, when they had a reef net fishery over the Gulf Islands, the reason at Fisher House, they will take control because they knew how to set up the reef nest, the right locations, all the technology associated with that, and so on. So it was never a single leader that change when the honeymoon showed up. Because the Europeans were used to dealing with a single leader, you know, Europeans culture is very hierarchical with with a single leader, and you know, underlings. So the British began to appoint, they would just deal with a single person. And by virtue of him dealing with the British, he was given access to all kinds of things, goods, guns, wealth, and eventually sort of upset the old Indian system of governance. And this was totally eradicated with the Indian Act in the 1880s, which was specifically designed to just destroy the traditional Native governance system and replace it with a Western system, which is now in place on every reserve in Canada. And it's caused a lot of tension on these reserves love internal tension in these reserves between people that, you know, advocate more traditional leadership that was more sort of democratic as opposed to the Western introduced, hierarchical, non democratic system, like we have now. How can a single leader represented which is possible, but that's why they do things in the state. Anyway, so this is a map produced by the whole community treaty group, to give you kind of an idea of the of the indigenous land tenure, it's really important to understand, you know, the use of the land, this was a map produced by, you know, just interviewing elders saying, Where did your family gather a certain mushroom, or give certain berries or, or go fishing or, or have a spiritual site, you know, just all this data is, is recorded, and then plotted on maps like this, and you see, it's all overlapping and all over the place, and get complicated. And if you are a man from, say, a village, you're down in Saanich Peninsula, and you marry a woman from Gabriel island here, well, your children would have access to all the resources of both your families. So you can see how it could get really sad this person here, child of a sandwich, and Gabriel, a woman, you know, having access to a fishery over here on the Fraser River. And you know, they moved around a lot like, up until the 1880s. All the villages here on the on the East Coast, on Cooper Island and in the couch and delta, they basically dismantle their houses, put them in giant canoes, and then go across the Gulf and reestablish villages all along the Fraser River basically just take apart their house, their houses were collapsible and pull them apart, set them on your, your raft, they actually just moved the plants, they had frames set up everywhere else and then go to the other place, take all your planning, so put them back in. And you live there and fish Sockeye fishery which was particularly great. And it's interesting today now, the couch and presents there's just forgotten day. In the early part of the 19th century, the couch and people from Vancouver Island they ruled the Fraser River. They were the rule. So first go look at look at a really interesting place to be on the north end of the island gave its name to Salzburg that's playful, playful, which is where firm it is. That means a place of salt. Click on salt hook place up. It's a it helped me to name for for the Salt Springs. And it's interesting because this was the first part of the island settled by non native settlers, and is a really cool map produced by Captain Richards in 1859, showing a map of Salisbury with all kinds of cute little trees on it stuff and elevations. And he has one word one settlements on here in Salt Springs settlement. And so obviously when the settlers arrived there in 1859, you know, the half of people. What's the name of this place? So quickly fun was that mean? Salt spread. So an indigenous name was used for the name of the first settlement and it's kind interesting because Saltspring is unique in the Gulf Islands, because all of those islands are named after you know, Spanish explorers or British naval officers with Saltspring, half still retains at least one of its indigenous place names in translation, and that Saltspring and but for many years that named Saltzman only referred to this part of the island, I got a really interesting account of women who live down here and key 59 is a girl, she was one of the first settlers, and they interviewed her in 1907. And the times calling us and they're talking about Salt Springs, you know, I'd never been to Salt Springs. She grew up here, but salt knew there was way the hell up here, you know, whites. But of course over the years, it became an eighth of the entire island. And here is a question a fun, this is one of the actual Salt Springs in the island. I think there's, I've heard as many as 14. But this is the only one that I really know about. Just in Fernwood area, and sweet mount, verse, reddish Earth, and there's sort of a little quite a seepage of extremely salty water coming out on top of that. And this is in the winter, if you go there in the summer, it's just covered with his white crystal, it's really quite remarkable.

Unknown Speaker 11:17
It's interesting, even though I don't know if the I don't know, any indigenous use of the salt. Interesting. I don't know if he really make up this map. This is sort of an early kind of archaeology. And I'm like I said, it hasn't been a lot of archaeology in the island. And a lot of it is just sort of very simple site surveys. This is done in the 70s. Somebody came by here, and they noted this area of bubbling Salt Springs. And then but this is an interesting map to me because it shows here's the North End Road, this is Hudson point, there's a 280 foot mitad ridge here, remnants of a large house, it's just in the woods off the road. It's all totally overgrown. But it's a 280 foot long house that could be Well who knows how old it is. But I believe that this is a remnant of the original claim from the village. And there were mountains and sites all around here lives have been disturbed over the years, but a lot of evidence of early occupation. And you got to remember over this 5000 year period, there's been a lot of changes. Like, you know, archaeology isn't just a static thing. You know, there's peaks and valleys, you know, in culture, you know, religious flourished and disappeared. And you know, things change over time. I mean, that's one thing we're interested in archaeology is its process and how things change. So let's just quickly I'm gonna get back up here in a sec. Recorded right now I just want to focus on this area, code maintenance coordinates, and that's the the name for Fulford Harbour. And that's cool name means, like move your bike over. It's a good kind of motivational name for that part of the island. And we don't really know where that name came from. Just a weird name relates to some story. It could be a descriptive name, I talked to an elder because nuts means like, ass rear end, bottom, and it might refer to the estuary at the head of the harder. But yeah, when it can't move you back over. So really interesting. But, you know, again, it's just a fragment of story. And here it is movie about over just and, you know, coordinate, that's a quite a significant precontact population. There's a very large sites all around the island, some public lands on private property, some disturbed some incredible states of preservation. And I just want to point this out in the background, see coordinates. So that's the new name for mountain axle, and that name is bench over plates. And now, unlike quick maintenance, bento replace has a story associated with it. And it's, I won't get into the whole story. But it's one of these incredible sort of origin stories which are found, you know, throughout the indigenous culture. And these are stories that are always set back and deep mythological time. And there's stories that relate to features in the landscape. So anybody growing up in this area, you know, you'd be out here in the boat with your grandfather, and he would say, See that mountain over there, that's blah, blah, blah, as a story associated with it. And the stories, you know, related to all kinds of things spiritual training, mostly, the lack of self interest in favor of the collective, these kinds of cultural teachings that, you know, sort of taught people how to live, and at the same time connected people to different areas. For example, the story associated with this. Just the brief version, though, there was a cannibal monster lived over a Vancouver Island on Samsung narrows. And it was a giant head had a huge draw right at the water lines. Every time a canoe came by, we just open its mouth, canoe and water go in and kill it. any, you know, and this is kind of common theme and a lot of these early mythological stories about landscaping populated with all these negative, destructive forces and a man was finally found who could defeat this monster and you happen to live way repoint Roberts, and he had a giant slings name was smokeless. And you know, he would toss rocks at the size of his room. And so he decided he did or he did to help the people kill this monster. And so he's weighing in rocks from point Roberts over just straight to try and kill the monster without Maxwell, the times, like three times its size was way up here. And so there's different versions of story, the rocks that bounce off the mountain or land this way or that way. And all these rocks are still in the landscape. I know where to find them, you know, to sort of remind us of the story. So the guy called a mountain that sort of bend over which it did in the game a clear shot and so he hit this monster in face knocked off his lower jaw and didn't kill it, but it took away his capacity to to harm people. And so this story you know, connects different areas connects you know, Lady Smith and sense narrows, Maple Bay and salt stream to point Roberts you know, these are stories that you know, a lot of different, you know, a lot of meaning and a lot of symbolism and metaphor and allegory. So, and the preserved in the landscape. And so we're really fortunate ourselves, we're gonna have a few places like that and just helps us informs us about the past. Most of you probably seen this as another sort of one of the few visible features the thing about antiquity around here, it's not very visible, like people are always saying, Oh, I'd like to go to Europe because the buildings are so old, you know, they're 800 years old, 1000 years old, and I don't know I look at the landscape here I see the I see the 1000 year old landscape and fell subsurface, most except for a few things like this. This is a petroglyph, and I don't know if you know the story. This was originally discovered by late Gordon Cudmore it was off his log boom and Fulford Harbour. And he had a lot of them there but operation happening and it was a rock that kept interfering with his boots instead. Okay, next level tie. I'm gonna get rid of that sucker. And so the really low tide right now this bulldozer hooked it out, pull it out, put it over, and here's his car man on the underside of it. So quite pleasing discovery. You know, and I don't think there's boulders at all. They some style of carving, it's probably about 2000 years old, but very significant fine. And again, these are sort of part of my dissertation. I'm not studying this one per se. But when you look at the Indian language, and you you know, you we call these petroglyphs pictograms with their hieroglyphs, they have one word for these whole halls and halls means a picture, it means paper and also means writing. So these are communicated messages. But the story behind this is, is lost. Where's the stone now? Central Park. If you guys go to Drummond Park comes a little sort of cops cedar trees, they're sort of clumped in the middle there is sort of a boat launch ramp slot, water, and it's on the south side of cedar trees. Yeah, and it's a very interesting rock because you can study the technique of manufacture, which is just pecking, somebody's going along decking holes to eventually create the image. Here's another kind of, here's another sort of physical reminder of indigenous presence in the eye. And this is on this bedrock formation in front of the St. Paul's church, the Catholic Church and Fulford and very interesting to see this abraded out of the solid granite and it's very smooth. There's about seven or eight of these known on the island in different locations. And of course, you know, years ago, all these New Age sites have always mystical oh, these shamans use these, you know, blah, blah. But when I interviewed Native people, these have very practical function, these identified food processing areas. This was basically a handy permanent orchard owned by a family and was used to process probably slough berries. Because those of you who know slough you knows Laos, not the most favorite area of anybody's insipid and dry, but if you find slough in a particular patch, you know, sort of north facing slope in certain conditions and things are just luscious, like grapes, very sweet. And that's what they would harvest you know, they, they would have their own areas where they knew things grew and profusion and they've increased the yield by breaking branches and stuff. But anyway, the kids you know, people would bring them down here and they would dump piles of berries in there and a little brandy or something that just mash them into the bowl and scoop it out as big massive mush of berries and put them on these bulrush snaps, dry them out and then stack them in capes. And these were you have a credible source. One of the only sources of vitamin C for Native people who would want winter and it was a store all winter and all owned by different people. Now this is gives you idea of some of the richness of the area around footprint. This is a China Beach. This is a feature exposed just in the last couple of years by rhodium bank. And what you see down here is about it's almost three meters, four meters of deposits, you can see that this is established archaeology these the stratigraphy, this is what we're interested in, in order to get an idea of process over time. But the remarkable thing of this site is this huge stone of it, the face of this, this,

Unknown Speaker 20:36
this feature, and this, this is one of the biggest things I've seen, it's about three meters long, and about a meter high. And it's just the special rocks, which they call cost, which is a special rock that we use in ovens, and it's still covered with the greasy grind, or whatever they are roasting on this thing, I have a feeling this was a use to roast us emails on it odd and very early. And you notice this in the archaeology here. The earliest sort of occupations, you know, you look around 6000 8000 year period, the it seems to be dominated with female remains. So the the earliest sort of populations here that we have a record of were primarily matal female hunters, you know, this is before this is when you know, things are still kind of in flux, you know, do physically and, you know, salmon streams are just becoming established and clam beds really, really established for 5000 years ago. So prior to that, there seemed to be quite an emphasis on female hunting. And I think this is what this feature leads to. But later, people start, you know, getting into clam harvesting directly on top of this feature, you have a nice layer of really well preserved clam shells. And that basically sets the story for the next 5000 6000 years. And you see the whole history here and the landscape and layers of deposition. And then you have a sterile layer here. This is a landslide, like the the bank behind is very unstable, and sees otter creek that runs down here. So occasionally, this whole site would be covered by a landslide, but then people will come back and keep working here. And so this is sort of stuff we study as archaeologists, but very time consuming if I was going to work on this site, you know, it would be incredibly expensive and incredibly time consuming to do a proper study of this thing. Because archaeology isn't like the battle days nowadays, like not even that long ago, 50 years ago, people just dig. And there wasn't really much concern about the context was mostly about locating artifacts. So people always they still have this mistaken idea about archaeology that we're just interested in material culture, you know, arrowheads and stuff, people are saying, look at the arrowhead. Now, I couldn't character could care less really. I kind of find it really boring. But and most material culture, I'm interested in the context, the process, like where these things are found in the ground, because that's what archaeology is about. It's about creating a three dimensional map what's in the ground. So context is critically important. I like to remind, you know, kids about the best analogy I can think of is forensics, please, Detective science, you know, when you go to a crime scene and house and he's got his hair cut off and broken whiskey bottle, you know, a new haircut ever straight around. You don't mess with that at all. That's critical evidence to understanding what took place there. Same with archaeology, done properly is about context. And it's very time consuming process up and actually have been used. Yeah, the question, they would basically build a fire, they have some sort of outline an area where you know, maybe a shallow pits, and they would, they would fill it full of a stack of the dry wood, alternating stacks. And then it would place these rocks on the top, and then light that fire. And then of course it burned down. And by the time that fire was burned to death, these red hot rocks, and then they basically just throw things on top of it. Let's say you have a seal. I mean, I don't even know they got it. They just kind of throw it on a kind of cook like a big sausage, I believe. Is that still something that could be looked at? And that's the way they process clams the same way. But this one is not a clam steaming other because it just does. It looks more female. Like I said it's covered in a greasy kind of grind. You can probably analyze it find out what actually they were cooking. Yeah. Was there evidence of large force Well, the indigenous people have burned a lot of land around here regularly. So there's definitely history of controlled burns. My eldest son just got a job now in the Parks Canada and he's gonna be investigating some of that fire ecology and turn island but it's definitely a factor here. There were so many during the environmentalist sort of battles on this island people are tied to the trees and stuff. There's more trees today in Salisbury than ever than there ever have been. A lot of the areas of Salisbury particularly Ganges burned with they were open grasslands that were maintained by regimen of seasonal burning. And then they knew how to do it properly. I think they should still do it on those bands associated with major earthquake events. No, no, that's just simple stratigraphy. But these landslides could be earthquake events, that sort of events. Yeah. Yeah. Could be see that's a hypothesis, one would have to test and test that. But what is the landslide layer made up? Whoa, wait, wait, and there is a shell, okay. And the, this darkest, grayish layers are a mixture of a carbon and charcoal and stuff and fossil remains and shell just, you know, built up and and compressed, you know, for years of use and activity. And this is just one small segment of what is a site that covers three or four acres, including some large mounds, like this is just a small fragment of it. And this is just yet sterile sand, just throw it down. And this gives you an idea, one of the mounds at this particular location, and the logging road has been plucked through it. And this is sort of an issue on everywhere with archaeological sites, because, you know, just like in the past, people lived in most desirable places. And it's the same today. So you have a lot of conflict these days between these archaeological sites, and, you know, modern development. As we saw happening Ganges, you know, those houses, I knew when they were going to develop there that it was an archaeological site so that the developers, you know, this stuff's all registered. And this is how most archaeology is done. Now, in British Columbia. It's mitigated archaeology and their professional firms that do it. I don't think it's the best kind of archaeology, because often you have people working in areas where they don't really know much about the history of the place. There's not a lot of ethnography in archaeology, which I think is important. So it's like, you know, exactly, if you're studying ancient Greece, and you're an archaeologist, you know, you think you'd learn a bit about Ancient Greece. And he studied mythologies, he becomes familiar with Gods, I mean, just like it's a no brainer, same with France, you would learn about the history of France, and people and you know, the cultural history. But here that isn't done so much. And it's impossible in something like cultural resource management, because, you know, they're working in different areas, some of the buildings guys go here to go there, someone's doing something, they're there, they're there, there's no way they can get a handle on the local specific histories. So just an issue, but no written language, you know, written language, oh, no, well, but there are, there are ways of finding out. I mean, there are interviews. There are, there are a lot of tips around that. But it's not something the general public has access to. I mean, I only really know what I know, because I've been privileged to meet informed elders, and you know, had the time and just the the interest to go dig in archives, because a lot of this stuff is just hidden away. In the most strange changes places like the face, we call on us, in the in the journals of early explorers and settlers, you gotta go through tons of material just to find one little kind of reference to say, the ancient past, or somebody just might have observed something. For example, we have a great account by some seller here, in 18, eight teams, Nike really talks about how 30 years ago was not uncommon to see 500 Native people in Ganges art or artists and clams. So that's a really cool piece of evidence that you would know otherwise, you just sort of survive. This is just some of the stuff of saying, oh, like artifacts, but these are just some they're in the collection of the world, the CDC and found on various beaches. Again, out of context, I mean, we know from typologies established elsewhere, the rough ages of these things. So I can say that about you know, 3000 years old, 4000 year old points, these one's a little more recent. This is probably more recent, but they don't really tell you anything about just give kind of a general age for this particular artifact, in and of themselves. They don't mean much the family context they do. Is it material came from this area, or did it come from somewhere else? We're still figuring it out. In fact, there's some archaeologists now doing some of this trace analysis, like they're, you know, zapping these things with, you know, electron stuff and equipment and getting a signature from the artifact and then looking for quarries where these might have come from, but it's still totally in its infancy. Like a lot of that stuff back here. This is the salt, which

Unknown Speaker 29:56
you can find around here but it's a very equality but we know that Some incredible basalt quarries in the interiors. Some of this may have been traded down either in bulk material or not shale. You know, shale is found around here but most of the shale in the Gulf Islands apparently comes from a Korean seashells area from Jervis inlet, there was just a place where they had really fine because because they were interested in find something like you're gonna take the time to make an arrowhead like this and involves a lot of expertise and technical ability, you want to make sure you get really good quality material. And there were long distance trade routes. For example, obsidian was traded from Oregon and from Northern BC to this area and that's one of the ones they have the best handle on is they've got three signatures of city and from certain places so it's pretty easy to kind of grab a piece and look at it and tell where it came from even just the color here's just an eighth of found that Isabel point by somebody you know doing a well it's an it's a large so clap of some sort of hard material, I couldn't even guess what it is. But very well fashion, you know, long kind of groove down the side. incredible amount of work to do that. cutting and polishing. Here's a more recent item. This was found by the late Bob Aikens dad at Drummond Park, and it's a copper medallion pendant or maybe a spindle world I'm not sure what it was. It may or may not be native copper, it's probably sheet copper that's traded in the late 18th century, and it has some designs engraved on it. So that's pretty cool. piece just give ideas some of the items found. Now this is an interesting place in Fulford, this is the Indian reserve. It's the only officially designated reserve on the island and fascinating 70s. And this is what it looked like 1920 There were many trees on it. And it was dominated by large longhouse here, and a smaller European style house and a native couple lived in there from Cowichan. And so most of you probably know, this reserve is now designated as the Saanich reserve. But that's only because the Indian commissioner who went there in 1870. Notice some sense people there and said, Oh, well, I'll make this a sanitizer. But he didn't realize that all these reserves have multiple owners from many different areas. It's only with the creation of the Indian Act, that they quit Edom, white people started to kind of segregate native people into these distinct areas and create these artificial boundaries that never existed in the past. They certainly exist today. And this is sort of why land claims is so kind of, you know, confrontational and complicated. Anyway, that's the house. And this is a really cool photograph that was discovered just a few years ago, in a local collection, showing the last two occupants of the house. Heavy names, I forgot them. See, I'll kill it. So yep, flipped flipped. And I forgot his name. Charlie was sort of just white. As you can see, they're two boat canoes here. And another view of this huge longhouse that stood there. And now these, this couple, Bobby used to tell me the story, how they were saving up for a Potlatch, and they disappeared. And their canoe was found all broken up in Portland Island, which suggests that they were murdered. And and when they when they disappeared, no one ever returned to live on reserve. And this is the house a few years later, sort of falling down and ruin eventually took all the cedar off it and then I think it was demolished and burned. And yeah, no one's ever lived there since. But, this kind of image like you go down there now it's all kind of overgrown, but you can see here, this is all artificial, built up the cultural deposits and until their disappearance, this is probably the longest continually occupied place on Saltspring Island. Again, no archaeology has been done here. But we know from diagnostic points that people lived here for about 3000 years. And just just another photograph showing another place, this is at the entrance to Hills develop point that says develop point here and entrance to Fulford and large grassy area. These are all thick, deep cultural deposits. And they sort of see the white shell on the beach, always a sign of the earlier occupation. So this place has an incredibly rich, I believe there's rectangular houses, depressions, they're the few artifacts that have been found the range from you know, three or 4000 years ago to write a storytime. Where's that again, this is Isabel point, just on the size of it. If you can Infoprint look and see this grassy area became famous in later days as a homestead and one of the first wind settlers to own a family. And that is the only house still there. Yeah, so he's built a new house here. Yeah. Beautiful spot. So that's yeah, that's just down here. But But again, a major site that quitting that's this whole area, centered, large populations. Very huge site over here office, the Russell Island and the ones inside here, and one up there. So Wayne, that's the name from that early map. Some of you have probably heard that Saltzman used to be called Swan Island or something. That was just a mistake on Douglass's part, I can we went on a little canoe trip and T 52. He ran around towards de Janeiro Saltspring Island, and he probably said to his guy, what's the name of that place, guys, and let's smile. Because he's referring to to mount twang, and that name Swan and my quad is actually a corruption of that Indian name. slang means to name that describes the landscape, the way it comes down straight to the ocean. That name was a descriptive name. This is what I really liked. Kids always liked this one, quite a thought club. That's nice shithead rock. grey rock is you know, bare rock covered in bird crap, and very white. And so just a descriptive name. Nice descriptive name. And other names like this is a very intriguing name. Wallclock sablet Swag plus is the Thunderbird. Everybody has heard about the Thunderbird and Sangria is a powerful spiritual creature. I'll say love st let its cave. So it's cabled the Thunderbird somewhere up here. It hasn't been relocated. He covered them is a name for little bay or the Kellogg state is that Nimi mean? name refers to a little drowning sound because someone went there and in the past and you know, kept overnight good. Some little drumming sounds spooky and named the place. Here's a good one. I always like to talk to kids on a Hot Club platform. We know that my name is from the sound of it. They are ducks. Yeah, this but it's a specific duck. It's a very good answer. And yeah, that's one thing about you know, indigenous cochlea names that I find really cool is that their thumbnail? Poetic names often relate to what they're describing, like you take any animal or any reptile frog or bird. Usually they're very cold and sounding name is the name of that animal. So it's really interesting. You actually hear them at night like my favorite one is wetness, which is the tree crop. No in the month of wetness is because you hear wetness. It's really kind of neat. And yeah, so Lachlan, places over dams. And Broglie has some interesting history too. In the 19th century, this is where the increment family traces its its indigenous connection. This is I'm up here in the boulders looking down burgling Bay, their sense of narrows, here's Cowichan Bay, how today was home to about 12 different villages. One of them was called cleft lips. And it was a family and clinic plantlets that had the rights to Vergleich Bay. So they didn't live here all year round, but came here at different times to you know, harvest or access whatever resources they were interested in there. And when they were tearing down the old buildings there I went down and sure enough, when they removed the old cottages that were down there and can park you know, expose a lot of the mitad deposits. So I went down and photographs and quite a number of archaeological sites all around here because it was a very important place and there's a little creek here but it's just a you know, it's not a great Creek it has had a small run of coho and chum. But main reason people came to Bach one I believe, was to harvest Camus. Oh, there's just a big stone hammer found just blue just behind the site. I was looking at this, this is an old a recent hammer, you can tell just by the shape you swept off malls. This was about this big and gentleman found it down and gave it to Bob Aikman and bought like to claim it was used by his great grandfather, which it may well have been. And so yeah, it's a casting. But the most significant thing about the series is mountain. And I talked to earlier how it was a prominent figure in in a mythological story.

Unknown Speaker 39:46
And so it was also an important place for spiritual training. And this was an important part of the indigenous culture. You know, you'd be brought up in your house I see as a young person you'd be brought up in your house You know, in the house would have associated teachings and, and become familiar with mythologies and everything. But then when he became an adolescent or a puberty you were sent out on the, to be by yourself, this is sort of a way to put you in touch with your kind of your spiritual guide, I guess is the best way it was. It was it was important adaptive mechanism for indigenous people wasn't sort of a flaky thing that people did, you know, they went out, and you would be in a remote area, and you wouldn't have anything to eat, you know, after a few for, you know, four or five days, you'd be very, you know, you sort of enter an alternative state of an altered state of consciousness, I guess you could say, through sensory deprivation, but what this would do, would really bring it home and in a real cathartic way, your role in life, it would sort of, you would have sort of a visionary experience, actually, it's what they had. And this would be, you know, a supernatural being would appear to you and sort of the giving you your title. So it would appear in your vision and basically give you an understanding of your role in life. And so you think it was basically your graduation to adulthood based on all your teachings, but a very, you know, very experientially derived, you know, direct kind of the experience that people had you come back to your village, and people would never talk about it always amazes me, no new age, people always talk about other visionary experiences they had, of course, they're just stable and crazy, because you can, can't articulate experiences like this. And if you do, according to the indigenous teachings, your your power is diminished and disappears. So it's best not to talk about, but to know it. And it was always kept secret, but it was incredibly adaptive and help people survive, you know, make a living in the environment. These also so there were these caves up here where people, you know, went had these sort of spiritual boundaries and experiences. But these caves also served a another function. They were refuge sites. And this is one this is part of a complex up there. It's like a natural kind of fortress. And there's certain large boulders where you have excellent views of Burgoyne Bay. And baud rate can be used to tell me stories about they were told to him by his grandmother about a Raiders would come in there. You saw that picture earlier, you know? And you're burgle, I have quite a few of the Narrows. So anybody approaching your camp would be seen from long way away. And if they didn't recognize the canoes, or they had any doubts about it, they would just head up into the boulders here and hide out until the coast is clear as a word and take out you know, clouds food, this is the remnants of a shellfish food processing area. And they would just stay up there until it was less dangerous and a lot of this the boulder field below. Yeah, that's the boulder field, which is quite an incredible archaeological site there. Burials up there, 2000 years old, these vision questing areas, plus these refuge sites. And yeah, really interesting area. But these refuse sites were really used until later because I talked earlier about when for bad for Victoria was established. It was like when it when it appeared in British Columbia, it was like the Walmart of British Columbia, like the only Walmart in British Columbia, the only store and so if tracted people from all over the province from, you know, up in some shape area, the height area, they're all just coming down there to, you know, to trade to buy the stuff that was there, and it has a password gun violence was a lot of conflict. And so the need for places like this, and it was quite a tumultuous era that followed in the wake of a large smallpox epidemic. And then all this warfare, and it's kind of colored European perceptions of indigenous cultures, you know, that was thinking always fighting and warfare, but really, the period we're looking at was already heavily influenced by, you know, changes in the culture introduced from outside. Just briefly, this is one of the most important resources on the island. We're associated with the Gary of metals, like we have some of the, I think that is the largest area of landscape in Canada. But it's a remnant of what they call an anthropogenic landscape was landscape modified by humans. And what they were doing here was burning every year and cultivating the Camus and some of you probably know what Camus is it's the root sort of vegetable I don't know too much about starch or carbohydrate or something, but very important to the indigenous people. They it's, it would be harvested right now and steamed in huge pits and then they break up the soil, take up the largest balls and then In towards the end of the summer they would return and burn these areas they did control burns, and they think they just didn't do it anytime they would watch the weather and then burn off this area. And this is actually what made a lot of Saltspring desirable settlers because you know there are these huge open areas like Fernwood, and nice sort of prairie lands already cleared and made a very desirable settlers. And this is just interesting. There was a fire out there a few couple of years ago burned about five acres. And I went looked at it, it was incredible fire actually took out all the weed species and took out like the Douglas fir Delos version, and Berto carry Oak has like a fire retardant bark. You know, it's just flourishing now. In fact, the most damage done here was from the water gunners, you can see all the eroded soil. Water I've done the water on it caused more damage than the fire, that's for sure. But a fire does not hurt these landscapes infects the central for it, it's gonna manage that forest should have controlled burns. But you know, that's an art in itself. Here's Maxwell lake just to give you show you that. Indigenous people use the shoreline from the intertidal right up to the tops of the mountains. There's two points of land up here. And there's all kinds of lithic scatters up there and evidence of camping activities. And they access that place by Maxwell Lake. There's a trail that went from from birth canal, up MASL Creek rather to the the inland areas of Saltspring. So people moved all over the landscape. Here on the channel Ridge channel ridge. It's sort of sad that that was quite an old American landscape out there, but 1000 years old, but it was it was mostly trash before they did any archaeological impact systems all that backwards. Like after the bulldoze that place in that huge fires and stuff. Then they brought in the archaeologists. And all they were able to find are kind of remnants, they found, like fragmented boulders, with carvings on it and stuff, but they're all broken, and vestiges of Shell mitten. And it's funny, the developer, somebody claimed the loggers have brought the shell mitten up there to build roads, which is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. But I also found 8000 year old points. And in association with some of these meds in here, I'm just standing over here. And there's a very thin scatter here shell. And this is all brought up here by people and they're not deep mittens, but they show that people are up there. You know doing whatever activities

Unknown Speaker 47:38
1000 year old points.

Unknown Speaker 47:43
That would be cool. No points. You need the mic. So now I think it'll just look at the middle part of the island. And this is where we are today. She helped is the indigenous name for Ganges harbour and Ganges. And that name, you know, I've interviewed elders about it. And that name is so old that has no meaning anymore. Like it's one of these, you know, the indigenous languages aren't frozen in time anymore than English is. But so names change over time overuse and she helps when he knows that needs. But they all almost everybody recognizes it as really important area. You know, it was significant for sea mammal hunting, herring. Clams particularly exist, you know, it was a rich area for all manner of things. And people have customary rights to this place from all over from Saanich from Nanaimo, from Cooper Island, and from the couch and area. Again, these are based on old family connections to the place customer use over hundreds of years. And but the interesting thing about she helped that I learned in my research was in terms of say, of the canoe Portage from the head of booth canal right here to the harbor. And there's this shot of Ganges showing some insight. So we are Walter Bay, large archaeological deposits use a clan garden off here, a built up area where they they built up the beach to increase the productivity of clams. There's a large 1000 Year 2000 year old site over here at Churchill beach, and so on. Ganges itself is the site of a large pre contact village. So actually it was occupied up until the 1860s. And of course, Ganges has changed quite a bit with all the infill uses. This is sort of it's a little a kind of crappy picture but shows you the how archaeologists define these sites. You know, the whole of the country is divided up into quadrants. The system developed by Charles Gordon, who is a pioneer A influential pioneering archaeologist here in British Columbia at the University of DC. And he devised a system and every quadrants in the country is given this four letter designation and sites are found within these quadrants. They're their names sort of in Georgia, they're found. So here's one of the first ones here DLR, you want Walter Bay, and DLR you nine Ganges and look at the size of the site. And this is just determined on the basis of visible surface features by whoever recorded the site. This is just some of the stuff again the material culture founded say Walter Day. This is how it's stored in the BC Museum. Big trades, you know, when somebody finds an artifacts and somebody's walking on the beach and found this bone point, you know, they take it to Victoria and they put it in his box. Again, you know, because there are a lot of contexts they don't context they don't really give you a lot of information. But even looking at this, you know, you see a nice Elkhorn wedge here. So you know, they were doing some heavy duty woodworking, large spear points here, these look like kind of war things and lots of these things. Sandstone upgraders is probably one of the most common artifacts. Usually people didn't even notice them. But he likes to keep these things sharp. So everybody has their own kind of Whetstone. When you find them on the beach. Again, it's kind of neat, you can tell some prized possession. This is a very interesting feature that's probably quite old. This is a cobble chopper. When you study the archaeology of British Columbia, when you get to the 8000 6000 year period, there's not a hell of a lot of artifacts, there's not a lot of preservation of bone in that. And so you all you have to stone artifacts, this is a cobble chopper. This is like your basic kind of, you know, this big, just a bunch of flakes taken off the end to give it a cutting edge needs to be used to render down big carcasses, like females. This is a very interesting piece, a ceremonial ritual piece found at Walter data, a woman digging in a rose garden. And it's a really it's an incredible sculptures, but this big, carved of sandstone, some sort of sea monster or something. And it's interesting because it's got a shallow kind of hole, top of its head. There's just some different images. And there's vestiges of red paint called tunnel, which is a very sacred important paintings. Now this is what I really want to show you. This is a Ganges in 1930. For those of you haven't got it next time you're mow it to the cash register, pick up this postcard. They have it on display there. This is a great shot again, he's in the 30s like he was Ganges. And it gives you an idea of the original landscape like here is the original village site all along here. And along the spit. Here's the spit out to her mo it says Now is it was an island. And this is all DLR you nine. And for example those recent those burials uncovered recently on the upper Ganges are overrating here. And this is actually part of the larger burial site because burials have been found like across the road there in the 60s. I mean, there could be lots of burials. And most stores built in the 1908, early part of the 20th century, they uncovered a lot of burials and artifacts underneath it. You know, it's not surprising in a place where people have lived for up to 8000 years to find these sorts of things. Yeah, so large landscape and you see how it's all open. But this is a this is the site of the the reportage. So came up here from booth canal, and then went up to around to the power station is on Atkins road or that substation. And then they would hold the canoe a corduroy road to, to possibly Rainbow Road, and then shoot down Rainbow Road to I guess, this way somehow. And then down this ravine and went down five artspring. And Creek eventually come up here and this is his long canoes skid that was used, it would save you like it would be two hours of Portage, or like seven hours of paddling around the island. So most people opted for the portage. And it was well maintained. And this is the head of booth canal. You know not high tide. Imagine high tide the tide right up in there to go in the way up who kind of creek here and like I said up to the Atkins road thing. And then down. These are some artifacts found by the property owner at the head of the canal. So there were campsites along this Portage. And yeah, just came down and followed this way and came out down here. And I interviewed a gentleman he's born in 1919. And he remembers going up in the 30s to explore this old route because elders have told him about it. And so he started here, he went out he found remnants of the corduroy road. And then there's some white people and they frighten them. So he took off He told me that story is pretty neat. There's still evidence. I don't know, I've looked and I thought he found evidence of it. But it might have been just an old bridge built by Japanese because goes to the old Americana properties or the counter properties. And I think there's evidence in one day, we'll go and have a look. This is just the excavations in Ganges of those burials, six barrels. They're pretty amazing. indisputably native. Yeah, I think so. Well, actually, I don't know. I mean, I haven't seen any of the tests. But I assume they would be judging from what I heard, they were found right on the on the sterile bedrock. No chance it was another Kennebunk banders.

Unknown Speaker 55:52
Yeah, here just shows you some of the stratigraphy and the cultural deposits. So now go up to this place. Haman is the DNA for Walker's book. And north part of the island. Now this is this is the original salt space settlement extended from the 1859 Soma extended from the north end of the island right down to Walker. So it's interesting, there were 20 Lots. And nobody ever occupied this one. Because it was an indigenous village site. This is the beach and this is what you know, an anthropogenic landscape, this entire beach is tombolo is there is the result of shellfish harvesting processes over 1000s of years has built that up. And then at some point, there were houses along here. I don't know when you guys wrap this stuff up, just go along here. Here's another shot of Walker's sick, again showing this massive. Like it's an anthropogenic landscape, you dig anywhere in here, my kids used to go here and dig like 10 foot holes in the beach. And you know, there's cultural deposits all the way down. We're sitting at Walker's at East side of the islands, Portsmouth area. And Tombow was created on shelf. Yeah, as far as I can tell, it's not unusual. In BC, there are other places on the Gulf Islands. There's an archaeologist right now from Western State University, or Washington State University who's investigating these these artifacts, these anthropogenic landscapes. But, I mean, there might have been some, but based on my sort of study, I mean, it looks, it's all just created from you know, 1000s years of shellfish harvesting, building them up occupations. But there hasn't been any work done here except for this mitigators. So here's one of the best examples is probably not that easy to see. But a few years ago, the bank fell away. And up here you can see the separate deposits disturbed because this has been, you know, farmed and plowed for almost 100 years. And so there's a there's a number of disturbed deposit down here, you get these intact, deep cultural deposits. And this one is really cool, because it shows the side of the longhouse and you can see this, this horizontal floor here, and these are the remains of house posts are actually a wall posts along the side of the house. And of course, wood is rotted away, and just left these depressions. But that was a pretty exciting discovery, an old house Saltspring and this is the type of house that was you can see those posts holes in the remains of these kinds of holes, not the corner posts, because, you know, these long houses were basically, you know, posting beam structures, you know, it'd be even easier to post in each corner and then, you know, beams and rafters, and then they put these side posts all along here. And they're sort of doubled up. And so you can slide these giant boards in between them. Like, you know, just slide them in, these are the boards that you know, they've dismantled the 1000s Like I said earlier to to move them elsewhere. And so this is what we see Walker's hook aside, you have one of these households that picture this 1868 That was taken in in the darkened area and so the hatchery there they A while ago, the the we're gonna build a system of pumps and pumping up seawater and then for the hatchery, and then you know, using it up there and then recycling it back down and just dispersing it into the groundwater. But it was a known archaeological site so they had to monitor it and they knew they wanted to do a very little impact on it. So they use a small little backhoe and dug out a trench just about this big just enough to lay this pipe in and drill some wells. But as we went along, they start going Individual one individual to individual 3d And, you know, all the way up all burials encountered in the small little trench. And when archaeologists who worked on figured, you know, if you just looked at it, you know, mathematics potentially, that could be as many as 1700 burials in this whole area. So, an interesting part of the history and, yeah, just be more too happy. But, you know, it's what happens, you know, when we come into contact with these sites these days, you know, it's just the ways to mitigate it. So now we're gonna go to the north end of the island, to this area, like this is where we were earlier with claim flow. You know, the Saltspring area, this is Puck, net names cool because it relates it's a descriptive name, Cook is white on up a shell, and our first two years to you know, an anthropogenic landscape and here it is, this was before this is Sir this is an aerial photograph from our friend Marshall start showing put up this this major campground before it was destroyed, wasn't really destroyed. It was sort of an estuary in here, the guy just kind of bulldoze it around. But there's, there's there's sections of it left. But all this is a built up by landscape. This is a huge sort of wall dike of shell, that enclosed an estuary, they have all kinds of plants and things in it. These were basically sort of really important food gathering areas. And this camp was used almost 5000 years. And there's just a shot. It's still a very rich, clamped Dead Sea, the white shell on the beach, which gives it to its name, and it's looking towards Cooper Island and village of Penelope. Now, these are the people that control this part of Saltspring island north and Saltspring Island was controlled by people from Cuba, which is now called the delicate island after the major village there, and Pelican on Cooper is the largest indigenous community in the Gulf Islands. And it's just as an artist's impression of the whole shellfish processing. process. Yeah, people have gathered the shell, the shell fish and bringing in baskets. And here's one of these pits here, they have a big deep pit with where they've heated up rocks, and they just dump the shells, or the clams onto these right onto the rocks, and then cover them with massive steam open really quick. They removed the meat from the shells, that's what they're doing here. And then they spread them on split cedar sticks and arranged around fires. And when they're finally finished, you know, these things are hard little nuggets of protein. And they were traded all into the interior for things like Jade and soapstone, it was really important trading commodity that coastal people use. And this is what we see up there. This is my eldest son years ago, standing on one of these. We went down there one day, you know, something, usually this is just sort of the shell, grab a beach. But on this one day, the water kind of washed away and revealed all these earlier, shellfish streaming platforms. He's standing on a platform, here's about 1000 years old. And as you can see, it's been built up incrementally over the year. And native people are using this site up until the 40s, when they were, according to the council literally driven off by the Department of Fisheries and local landowners who didn't want them accessing your traditional areas. And this has been, you know, sort of the issue with indigenous people. You know, the issue about land claims, it's not always people always about race, you know, these, you're getting special groups, because you're Indian, but it's not. It's about an end result property rights, which were acknowledged by the British crown as far back as 1763. So they just want justice to be dealt with the trouble is in the 18th century, everybody figured that native people just die out an old stats proving that, in fact, native populations in North America and in New Zealand, which is where I have some of my ancestry, recent Nadir 1900, that was like the bottom. And so in the culture at large was like these guys are going we don't have to do anything but disease. Yeah, disease and yeah, all kinds of things. But so that's the history. So this is just another shot looking back towards an aliquot. And this is the old this is the village of pelicans. I took this picture in the 80s and one of the original longhouses or one of the later versions, still standing and blue down here, there. And originally there were 15 of these houses on the beach. Community now is up on the hill here. And later on this year. We might be doing some archaeological work here because it's a very old village site. And we're also going to be working over here unit zero point. And this shot is a great shot because it shows the proximity of the Lower Mainland and people from up inelegant, you know, they didn't just access food resources here, they also access places over there mainland, you know, again, it's distributed economy, basically, you know, destroyed and then when would you have shut down because, you know, their access sold their economy was just totally destroyed the way of making a living was destroyed. And that's basically kind of a legacy that we have today that this is another village on Cooper Island. This is that LA multi Bay, also called for Meltzer. It was the lookout place. This has been a subject I wrote a whole book about this place, and the history of it. The people that lived in this village in the 1860s, were were adamantly opposed to any colonization on the Gulf Islands. And they sort of have their own little campaign to kind of Whaley

Unknown Speaker 1:05:52
groups of non native peoples who were trespassing and kill them. And eventually they were attacked by gonna go to the Royal Navy and 1863 was the den go forward fact this village because they believe that the there were some people in the village that were responsible for some of these killings has never true, namely that the gumbo went up there and fired into the village. The indigenous people returned fire and after a three hour gunfight, the the gumbo retreated and retired. And it's the only documented known defeat of a Royal Navy by an Aboriginal fighting force in the history the world. That was April 20 1863, and I've just given you given permission by the inelegant man to go to Lao today and I'm going to do a an archeological study of the battle field. I can use a metal detectors and I'm looking at all the ordinance shot at the village by this gunboat was kind of mounted 32 pound rifle cannon Armstrong gun on the center pivoting carriage at 224 pounder cannons here a crew of 40 sailors and marines and I've got a list of all the Ordnance the fire to the village. I've done a an archival historical study of the battle now we're gonna look to the actual archaeological signatures of the fight to kind of get more information about it. There on the west side of Cuba. Yeah, west of the various south end. Yeah, got another shot up here. That yeah, right up in here. Possible Nelson. An Indian native that homelife means the lookout place and in the 1860s These guys were well armed with European weaponry. They have lock house in the middle of the village built in the western style with square logs, loopholes, they had trenches around the floor and inside they had anti artillery bunkers the attention stuck in the bottom of the block house with thick playing laid over top. And when the British you know, whenever British eventually returned to the lab, Laci could never hope to you know wait to sustain war against the British and in fact they were eventually all captured in for their leaders were hanged in that square, but was quite the worst go to when they work when but, but when the British finally landed there, and they burned the village down and studied it squirt, they found like to put the 24th Tomcat balls are literally stuck in the side of lockouts and the cedar logs just absorb the shots. So as as far as I know, these guys withstood, like some of the heaviest weaponry ever fired. an Aboriginal fighting force. So it's kind of an interesting story about BC. So that's actually the north end, though right here. So the point No, Cooper, Cooper, yeah, right in here. That was the village blockhouses in the center of the village. But it was interesting when I studied this, the source of the battle and when the gunboat approach did anchor between these two points of land. And so the story is in there, there are only about 20 or 25 of them. They left the blockhouse and collected on two points of land. And so when the gunman opened fire in the village, they opened fire at the same time, and caught in the crossfire and killed the British sailor right out and wounded another one, and totally surprised the guy who ripped up the rigging. And so the gunboat and backed out here have a rifle range and then just basically just shot at the physicians for three hours. And there's stories about the natives going up into a hill here just laughing at this shit for wasting. It's out. They weren't shooting anything. But yeah, they weren't able to sustain any long conflict there eventually. But it said Seeing all the warriors who are captured, none of them are captured through the help of the British, the British employed or enlisted the help of First Nations allies to capture the hallmarks of because one thing about the Coast Salish, they didn't have a unified because like I said before, the greatest unit of political agents was a family that didn't have any kind of overarching political organizations that could confront anything like, you know, the British Empire could send against them. That's sort of in the story all over the world, actually, what you're taking 63 If you want to read more data and get my book, it should have exactly the same. Just trade. Soon as they have trade, in fact, you know, while these wars are going on your Indian wars in Washington state that got newspaper accounts to talk about the Indians being better armed soldiers, because they had access to no layers.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:02
Could you enlighten us about the royal proclamation of 1763? Wouldn't that have protected the First Nations people there? To some extent? Well, it could have been theory.

Unknown Speaker 1:11:13
But on the ground, you know, is this was ignored. And the robot automation was basically, you know, the British to try and make alliances with Native people. And it basically guaranteed native people their lands and gave the crown right preemption. So indigenous people, their lands and resources are recognized, but they could be alienated mutually beneficial agreement. That's sort of my understanding Ropewalk nation that became the basis for like, the Treaty of Waitangi and New Zealand. And, and things like the Douglas treaties, but they I think they're always viewed as expedient by the colonizers, because, you know, it's just kind of a way to get in there. Everything's nice and legal. But again, you know, they figured, you know, the evolutionary paradigms were paramount in the 19th century, they figured that the white race would persevere and the nine indigenous races with disappear.

Unknown Speaker 1:12:11
Mean, great talk, by the way, thank you. You made reference earlier to people hiding in the rocks to escape the wrath of what? raiding party debt? Were these? I guess some might call them imperialistic intrusions. Were these raiding parties from individual communities? Or was, was there a particular group that

Unknown Speaker 1:12:36
they would be individual communities just like coming down, like, like I said, Before, when Ford Victorian, was established, I mean, there was no need for people to really come down. But when people have more started hearing about the Walmart down here, they want to go shopping. So they would come down, it was a long journey. And then they would pass through these areas. And of course, they would run into the indigenous people here, they had no connection with. And so it was kind of, you know, these people have probably protected territory said he landed on a certain beach, you know, the protocol was to get permission. Like, they have very strict, harsh rules about trespass, let's say, like death. And you know, that sounds harsh, like we're going Oh, my God. But the rule was, I mean, no, it was such an extreme rule. And it was like that nobody would ever break it. Nobody ever had to. It was like, if you broke a rule like that, you were such a maladaptive person, you would have to be taken out. That's sort of the way it worked. And they didn't put up with any kind of aberrant behavior in societies like rapist or somebody would just be killed. I mean, any kind of aberrant behavior was not, you know, was the collective was always, you know, privileged over the individual. But when it came to trespass, and some this is where the white people ran into trouble, because when they came in 1850s, you know, these miners came down, and the whole rest of the bus right away, Gold Rush was no good. And they and most of them went away. But there are a whole bunch of unemployed white people in Victoria. These guys have started, you know, traveling around here, and they're selling whiskey just traveling around hunting. And of course, we get to trespass many lands, and they were killed, and eventually culminated in that reflow steroid lecture that I was talking about. And, yeah, so So the fighting and it's warfare that I was talking about earlier, these raiders. This was sort of a product of the colonial period. We don't know. I mean, they definitely have wars in ancient paths, but it probably was of a different nature than what was witnessed in the 19th century. And this is the thing about, you know, archaeology, anthropology, a lot of times people are willing to kind of look at the native culture as it exists in the 19th century, and projected back in time. This is not theoretically sound anymore, because, you know, indigenous people just like European peoples peoples everywhere they have long complicated histories of change and and staff says, you know, we're still, I mean, as far as here, we're just scratching the surface. We hardly really know anything about the last 5000 years. But we're getting, we're almost out

Unknown Speaker 1:15:12
of time. One, one last question was actually a multi barreled question. Great. I was. That was thank you and welcome for anybody who didn't catch that.

Unknown Speaker 1:15:30
I'm just curious. You mentioned that there was the one official archeological dig by UBC. Yep. I think yes. And yet, wasn't there when I first moved here 76. I live just up from Venice Beach and the neighbors there told me they'd been a UBC, dig at Venice Beach. So one point. The other thing was, Are you a fan? Or have you ever read Vaughn Danica? You mentioned the hell convenient word for people to drop out of nowhere. Yes. Which sort of fit? And my other point was that I'm a little disappointed that there aren't more pictograph like the new kind of Gordon quite well, told me the story about the rock and everything else. Yeah, it's there. Why aren't there a hell of a lot more? So you mentioned the site's up on it way up top there. Yeah. Where they broke apart the rock. Have any of those been preserved? And be Are there any more pictogram sites on the island? Yeah, well, those the ones that the channel ribs are still there, you know, where they were disturbed. They're kind of lying there. You got to kind of look nowhere to look. And I still kind of skeptical about some of them. Why does definitely better than the other one? I'm not so sure about because, you know, sometimes routes going through sandstone, things that look like designs. I've been on so many wild goose chases, and I got to pictographs in my yard with Steve lake. So we go way to HELL out there. And it takes up the jungle. Well, that's systems, you know, it's not supposedly, but there is a set rock teams on the west side of the island that was going to show a slide that they're very poorly preserved. But yeah, there aren't a heck of a lot of Gulf Islands. But they could just be hidden, you know, like, erosion, like this one was found underwater. And actually, Gordon found another one. Because he apparently sold

Unknown Speaker 1:17:18
this law on the

Unknown Speaker 1:17:19
corner we'd be here for hours. I just mentioned it briefly the beginning. But yeah, long, harder has, you know, extensive work. That's where it gets if you did a really sustained archeological dig. And you mentioned UTC, you know, there could have been somebody out there doing something. But you know, could be I mean, I mean, when I said it's the only sort of I a single that long, Harvey because that's what they had like two years of field school. So they did a really intensive kind of study. There's been a lot of food mitigative archaeology done here, like at Harvard house, maybe the one at Venice Beach, Was there somebody building a house and found a burial? So once was right on the beach, and who's interested in that, you know, there was a time in the 60s when the UVC archaeology club would just kind of go out and just dig. And in those days, there were not a lot of regulations. You know, the, the heritage conservation branch wasn't really set up now. And there's a whole branch out there. The Ministry of I don't know which one it is now tourism culture, some where they have an archaeology graduate monitors everything in the province, and it's very strictly monitored, you know, strict conditions to any archaeological search, you know, you have to involve First Nations people and all that so I think it's really progressed a lot in that way. And this is getting really nervous.

Unknown Speaker 1:18:33